I want to hear what PhotoJT has to say...
Roak
Agency Bashing
- Thread starter divemed06
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Roak
If I've got the trend down, I expect to hear that knowing how to dive isn't required and it'll ruin the fun. LOL
cornfed
Mindless lemming
It takes all the excitement out of it!
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Not real informative but........
One of the most amusing amusing threads I have read yet.
Still laughing :arrow:
One of the most amusing amusing threads I have read yet.
Still laughing :arrow:
and they do sell "shut up and dive" shirts. Found several in the market west of the square downtown.. $7-$8 US. Didn't buy one, cuz I didn't know about this thread.
As far as agency bashing goes, here's my *personal* beliefs:
1. Trashing anyone or anything third-party serves very little purpose. While it may serve as a warning to others, it's usually meant to inflate one's own position or esteem. It's just another way of annoucing to others that you feel competent enough to hold someone/something else in judgement. Personally, unless I already have respect for you, I couldn't care less what you think of someone/something else.
Unless...
I *do* have respect for you; either by prior communication, or by a well-reasoned explanation of your judgment. Most of the posts on this board are of the type "What a joke.... can you believe... waiting to die ..." pointing out a bunch of inadequacies without offering explanation for others to learn from. They are usually so impolite that it destroys any merit the post actually had.
2. If you feel there is a real problem, I feel there are three constructive options: a) Resolve to not participate in the problem. (Don't follow the 'bad practice'), but keep your thought to yourself. b) Do (a) and advise people that trust you to do the same. (Delivery & style is very important... you will be measured by your advice.), and c) Do (a) and (b) and address the problem with its source. In my opinion, these are order of increasing value to society.
3. I kind of liken rec SCUBA to riding a motorcycle. You "can" do it without training, and you can do it with enormous amounts of training. It requires a basic skills & knowledge test to perform legally. It is generally safe, but you can be a danger to yourself and others as well. The more training & practice you have, the safer you become, and the better equipped you are to handle issues. Do I believe everyone should become an expert-level motorcyclist prior to being allowed on the streets? No, not really. Should they know the basic rules? Of course. Would I ask where/how someone learned to ride before I'll ride with them? Nope. Is someone a better or worse rider based upon where/how he learned. Very debatable.
I guess my summry is this: It sure seems that a lot of the "bashing" going on here is bred of jealously (oh, shut-up already--I know what you're gonna say.), self-righteousness, and/or inflated egos. There are some very, very, credible voices on this board. Usually in the real world, however, the people that "really, really" know things stay quiet unless asked. They may smirk a little when they overhear something, but they are in no hurry to correct the rest of the world or prove anything to anyone. I treasure those folks. They *know* things, not just in their heads, but in their muscles and their guts. If I approached one of these folks and said "Hey I was thinking of getting my PADI, NAUI, SAD, etc. C-Card... whatya think?", I'm guessing these types of folks would generally say "Sure, go take a class or two, get your card. It's a great place to get your feet wet. After you're comfortable in the water, let's go dive." And I would. And then we would. And then they would make a helpful suggestion or two or sixteen. And I'd listen and practice. After several years of this, some young person might come up to me and say "Hey I was thinking of getting my PADI, NAUI, SAD, etc. C-Card... whatya think?"
Diving is fun, that's why its called a recreation. It's to be enjoyed by the masses in my opinion. Make 'em not unsafe, and let 'em dive. Offer advice. Offer criticism, but don't just put down. For a physical example of the difference, try telling your wife "Man, are you ugly!" When you wake up and can talk again, try "Honey, I don't prefer that color of eyeshadow on you. I think blue brings out your eyes and that dress much more." See which is accepted more. See which brings about more change.
As a final thought, keep in mind that alot of divers come here to learn, not just converse. Everything that is said can be taken as verboten by the new diver. They don't have basis for judgment... they rely on others for that. Make arguments reasoned. Clearly seperate fact from opinion.
Just my opinions,
-Allen
As far as agency bashing goes, here's my *personal* beliefs:
1. Trashing anyone or anything third-party serves very little purpose. While it may serve as a warning to others, it's usually meant to inflate one's own position or esteem. It's just another way of annoucing to others that you feel competent enough to hold someone/something else in judgement. Personally, unless I already have respect for you, I couldn't care less what you think of someone/something else.
Unless...
I *do* have respect for you; either by prior communication, or by a well-reasoned explanation of your judgment. Most of the posts on this board are of the type "What a joke.... can you believe... waiting to die ..." pointing out a bunch of inadequacies without offering explanation for others to learn from. They are usually so impolite that it destroys any merit the post actually had.
2. If you feel there is a real problem, I feel there are three constructive options: a) Resolve to not participate in the problem. (Don't follow the 'bad practice'), but keep your thought to yourself. b) Do (a) and advise people that trust you to do the same. (Delivery & style is very important... you will be measured by your advice.), and c) Do (a) and (b) and address the problem with its source. In my opinion, these are order of increasing value to society.
3. I kind of liken rec SCUBA to riding a motorcycle. You "can" do it without training, and you can do it with enormous amounts of training. It requires a basic skills & knowledge test to perform legally. It is generally safe, but you can be a danger to yourself and others as well. The more training & practice you have, the safer you become, and the better equipped you are to handle issues. Do I believe everyone should become an expert-level motorcyclist prior to being allowed on the streets? No, not really. Should they know the basic rules? Of course. Would I ask where/how someone learned to ride before I'll ride with them? Nope. Is someone a better or worse rider based upon where/how he learned. Very debatable.
I guess my summry is this: It sure seems that a lot of the "bashing" going on here is bred of jealously (oh, shut-up already--I know what you're gonna say.), self-righteousness, and/or inflated egos. There are some very, very, credible voices on this board. Usually in the real world, however, the people that "really, really" know things stay quiet unless asked. They may smirk a little when they overhear something, but they are in no hurry to correct the rest of the world or prove anything to anyone. I treasure those folks. They *know* things, not just in their heads, but in their muscles and their guts. If I approached one of these folks and said "Hey I was thinking of getting my PADI, NAUI, SAD, etc. C-Card... whatya think?", I'm guessing these types of folks would generally say "Sure, go take a class or two, get your card. It's a great place to get your feet wet. After you're comfortable in the water, let's go dive." And I would. And then we would. And then they would make a helpful suggestion or two or sixteen. And I'd listen and practice. After several years of this, some young person might come up to me and say "Hey I was thinking of getting my PADI, NAUI, SAD, etc. C-Card... whatya think?"
Diving is fun, that's why its called a recreation. It's to be enjoyed by the masses in my opinion. Make 'em not unsafe, and let 'em dive. Offer advice. Offer criticism, but don't just put down. For a physical example of the difference, try telling your wife "Man, are you ugly!" When you wake up and can talk again, try "Honey, I don't prefer that color of eyeshadow on you. I think blue brings out your eyes and that dress much more." See which is accepted more. See which brings about more change.
As a final thought, keep in mind that alot of divers come here to learn, not just converse. Everything that is said can be taken as verboten by the new diver. They don't have basis for judgment... they rely on others for that. Make arguments reasoned. Clearly seperate fact from opinion.
Just my opinions,
-Allen
PhotoTJ
Contributor
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I don't dive outside my abilities, nor does anyone I know. Everyone I dive with learned through PADI OW. I have never had an emergancy, though I'm certian I or any of my group could deal with one if it arose. I have continued to learn, beyond what I was taught, and as my skills have increased, I have attempted more challenging dives.
The current instructor system could use some polish, and some "instructors" shouldn't be. No arguement there.
But to condemn the entire program is silly. You have an adventure, that requires a life-support system. Some stupid people are going to use it, some klutz's, some who don't know their limitations, and there are going to be truly unavoidable accidents.
Darwin and fate are going to get a few of us.
You wanna be a SEAL, join the Navy. You wanna dive with Irvine, take every DIR course out there. The vast, vast majority of divers are content with underwater tourism. (And they are still adventurers, DIVERS) There is a happy medium, and PADI, while not perfect, has a pretty good grasp of it.
Allen42,
Great post. Actually thoughtful.
Dive Safe,
Larry
Great post. Actually thoughtful.
Dive Safe,
Larry
Corregidor
Contributor
TJ, that was beautiful and concise.
Jim
Jim
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