Quite right you are Doppler. I do stand corrected and sincerly apologise to Puffer for the diatribe that I tossed in his direction. I guess the vitriol should have been aimed at others..Bubble Boy comes to mind. In any case I hope that you will accept my apology Puffer.
Air Quality Certificate
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Quite right you are Doppler. I do stand corrected and sincerly apologise to Puffer for the diatribe that I tossed in his direction. I guess the vitriol should have been aimed at others..Bubble Boy comes to mind. In any case I hope that you will accept my apology Puffer.
Nicely done The Tick... and I apologise for being... well, a little in your face.
Take care... for the record, Puffer is starting to convince me that this air quality issue needs investigating more deeply.
doppler
Bubble Boy
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Maybe you should keep the apologies coming. I am not affiliated to any dive shop but I do believe in getting good air.
Hmm..define not affiliated.
In anycase of all the dive shops around ontario you contend that there are only four that have 'good' air. Except for Dan's that is, that due to the way his filter tower looks he 'should' have good air. This cracks me up.
At best all you can say is that the rest of the air may be untested. Even if it is tested it may not be good enough for you as it might not have had the 'right' kind of testing. Get off the soap box.
Listening to you I would think that there are only four places that you would be willing to dive or at least get air. It must be a real peach to dive with you when you go abroad just to help you lug all your air cylinders aboard the plane/train/automobile. Try and find a testing certificate in Mexico, Singapore, Malaysia, Phillipeans, etc.
How many documented 'bad' air scenarios have you run across? None that I can think of. Yet there is no better way to put the crimp on a competitor than by spreading the dreaded 'bad air' rumour as then it is neigh near impossible for a shop to prove that it has 'good' air.
Get off the soap box. Shop where you want and quite pontificating about stuff that you read about in the manual and little understanding of.
Try diving instead of just talking about it. I find that it is a great relaxer.
Bubble Boy
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I dont know who you are, nor do I care. I am participating in the thread because I think it is along the correct path. I am not saying any one store is better than the other. I must admit that Seahunter has me tempted to pay a visit to his store as it sounds awesome. I am saying look for an air test. Regardless of the trainning agency they all refer to having air tested. There are shops that are not. As divers we should support the stores that follow their agency standards. Your obviously feeling a little stressed....maybe you should go for that dive.
eagleray2003
Guest
What is a Tick? Anasty little bug that gets under the skin and must be squashed!
Now there's and excellent comment on the subject of air quality. Actually I like living life on the edge and seeing how many dives I can survive on using uncertified air.
I will ask once again has there ever been a incident caused by a documented case of 'bad' air? If there has been then please inform the unwashed masses. Other wise I might have to contend that considering that the active dive population of Ontario being what it is must conduct hunreds of thousands of dives a year, most on 'uncertified' air as you contend, that statistically this is not an issue.
And a rather funny little "alternative" comic that was turned into a cartoon. Hmm. Does your dive buddy have big floppy rabbit ears?
<lecture mode> and strictly speaking, ticks aren't bugs - or any kind of insect. They belong in the class Arachnidia, along with spiders <end lecture mode> But they do seem to enjoy getting under our skin, don't they?
OP
pufferfish
Contributor
Tick your apology is accepted but you are still treading on pretty thin ground here. I see in your other posts you mention a particular dive shop at least a half dozen times. Please don't bring your anxieties about that unfortunate situation into this thread.
I would encourage you to read this entire thread before you post here further. Those who have been with us from the start like Seahunter, Bubbleboy, Cat, Sneaky, Eagleray, GTAdiver, Doppler, and myself have hashed out many of the topics you claim we should educate ourselves on.
In fact the readers of this thread are now experts in what PADI, NAUI, and the MOL require in terms of compressed breathing gas testing. Some of the PADI experts like Seahunter have even had to update some of their facts because of this thread. Readers also know the difference between no testing, OUC testing, CGA Gr.E and E2 air standard, CSA Z180.1-00 air standard, and possibly even what oxygen compatible air is. Compressor theory has been covered with respect to intake diameters and lengths, filter and oil changes and what can go wrong when these are not done properly. Readers know what dessicant, activated charcoal, and hopcalite is and does. Some of the earlier readers even know about low dose CO toxcity from another thread.
We know the difference between no accreditation (OUC testing), Canadian accreditation (Standards Council of Canada), and US accreditation used at labs like Trace Analytics (A2LA).
We know about CO failure rates for scuba and scba air sent to two of the largest accredited labs in the US (it ain't pretty).
So until you bring yourself up to speed on all these topics by reading this thread please go diving and chill out.
The spirit of this thread has been to identify the extent of the problem in Ontario with regards to air certification compliance. As stated earlier I have been in eight shops and seven haven't tested in over a year, some three years. This is clearly unsafe and not acceptable. We had to decide though when creating a list of 'safe air' shops what standard we would accept. Because we live in Ontario and the MOL has a requirement it was decided to request this. Shops with employees have to meet this anyways so this very minimum requirement is not too much to ask for. Are you advocating a no testing policy and the I have 'faith' in my shop's air purity standard? No testing does not necessarilly mean a shop is pumping bad air, but it does mean the risk is far greater. I do not care to be on the receiving end of bad air, and if some level of testing is not set then one will never know when the tank you pick up is the unlucky one. Untested air is a risk I am not willing to accept and I would contend that most rational divers would agree. Diving should not be a game of Russian roulette where one wonders (at least in Ontario in the 21st century) is this the tank that I get injured from. Go back in the thread and read what Doppler found in his tanks last year and only because they were due for a hydro. Five hundred mls of water, oil, dessicant, and charcoal found in his tank would likely have killed him at 200 feet probably even 100 feet. Bad air does happen at random intervals and the time interval between bad air incidents decreases as the frequency of testing decreases. Producing a good clean safe fill is based on science and proper testing. Would you advocate the city of Ottawa stop testing your drinking water for a year? I suspect not.
As it appears you are from Ottawa and must be affiliated with some shop (we will assume with employees) why not instead of posting here willy nilly ask the shop to show you the most recent certification to CSA Z180.1-00 standard that should be on file. I'd gladly add the shop to the list as the third Ottawa shop if they have a cert less than six months old as they should have for MOL requirements. It is very simple Tick show the CSA Z180 cert and the shop's name goes on the list. And if they are a PADI 5 star facility why not ask for the last four quarterly ceritifications they should have on file to CGA Gr E standard. I suspect like most of the shops in the province you will come up empty handed.
Make it your goal to get your LDS on the list before the end of July. Now that would be putting your energy towards something postive.
I would encourage you to read this entire thread before you post here further. Those who have been with us from the start like Seahunter, Bubbleboy, Cat, Sneaky, Eagleray, GTAdiver, Doppler, and myself have hashed out many of the topics you claim we should educate ourselves on.
In fact the readers of this thread are now experts in what PADI, NAUI, and the MOL require in terms of compressed breathing gas testing. Some of the PADI experts like Seahunter have even had to update some of their facts because of this thread. Readers also know the difference between no testing, OUC testing, CGA Gr.E and E2 air standard, CSA Z180.1-00 air standard, and possibly even what oxygen compatible air is. Compressor theory has been covered with respect to intake diameters and lengths, filter and oil changes and what can go wrong when these are not done properly. Readers know what dessicant, activated charcoal, and hopcalite is and does. Some of the earlier readers even know about low dose CO toxcity from another thread.
We know the difference between no accreditation (OUC testing), Canadian accreditation (Standards Council of Canada), and US accreditation used at labs like Trace Analytics (A2LA).
We know about CO failure rates for scuba and scba air sent to two of the largest accredited labs in the US (it ain't pretty).
So until you bring yourself up to speed on all these topics by reading this thread please go diving and chill out.
The spirit of this thread has been to identify the extent of the problem in Ontario with regards to air certification compliance. As stated earlier I have been in eight shops and seven haven't tested in over a year, some three years. This is clearly unsafe and not acceptable. We had to decide though when creating a list of 'safe air' shops what standard we would accept. Because we live in Ontario and the MOL has a requirement it was decided to request this. Shops with employees have to meet this anyways so this very minimum requirement is not too much to ask for. Are you advocating a no testing policy and the I have 'faith' in my shop's air purity standard? No testing does not necessarilly mean a shop is pumping bad air, but it does mean the risk is far greater. I do not care to be on the receiving end of bad air, and if some level of testing is not set then one will never know when the tank you pick up is the unlucky one. Untested air is a risk I am not willing to accept and I would contend that most rational divers would agree. Diving should not be a game of Russian roulette where one wonders (at least in Ontario in the 21st century) is this the tank that I get injured from. Go back in the thread and read what Doppler found in his tanks last year and only because they were due for a hydro. Five hundred mls of water, oil, dessicant, and charcoal found in his tank would likely have killed him at 200 feet probably even 100 feet. Bad air does happen at random intervals and the time interval between bad air incidents decreases as the frequency of testing decreases. Producing a good clean safe fill is based on science and proper testing. Would you advocate the city of Ottawa stop testing your drinking water for a year? I suspect not.
As it appears you are from Ottawa and must be affiliated with some shop (we will assume with employees) why not instead of posting here willy nilly ask the shop to show you the most recent certification to CSA Z180.1-00 standard that should be on file. I'd gladly add the shop to the list as the third Ottawa shop if they have a cert less than six months old as they should have for MOL requirements. It is very simple Tick show the CSA Z180 cert and the shop's name goes on the list. And if they are a PADI 5 star facility why not ask for the last four quarterly ceritifications they should have on file to CGA Gr E standard. I suspect like most of the shops in the province you will come up empty handed.
Make it your goal to get your LDS on the list before the end of July. Now that would be putting your energy towards something postive.
OP
pufferfish
Contributor
KISS= Keep It Simple Seahunter
That sounds way too complicated. So you will have to pay $30 CDN more per quarter plus return shipping to Texas and customs brokerage fees too.
Why not just have all four done at www.seatech.ns.ca and be done with it. Paul Fewer is a diver and charges $205 per quarter including shipping one way. No brokerage fees either. The MOL will be content, PADI will be pleased, your customers reassured, and S2K will have raised the bar for air certification to a new level in Ontario.
For $850 CDN a year or 17 cents a fill (you said you do 5000 fills) you will have four Seatech Z180 certificates and nothing for us to harass you about anymore. Now that is a real win-win deal don't you say :mean:
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