SneakyB'tard
Contributor
I believe that as long as the certification states that the test meets or exceends the standard, and the lab in question is accreditied and certified to do such tests, the air is acceptable.
Air Quality Certificate
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Bubble Boy
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There are several labs that can be used. The key is to use an accredited lab that utilizes appropriate testing proceedures. The standard specifies "accredited lab".
OP
pufferfish
Contributor
Good question JB. I would say if there isn't an actual certificate saying the air meets CSA Z180.1 (2000 not 1985) breathing gas standard then no they are not ok. The lab decides whether you meet the standard not the shop owner.
Secondly if the shop has not used an accredited lab like Cantest, Seatech, or Maxxam but has used an unaccredited lab like the OUC with no independent external monitoring of their accuracy and precision, then one cannot know whether the results you receive are reliable and therefore really do, "vastly exceed the standard". What if the precision is good but the accuracy is off and reading low. An actual CO of 15 ppm gets reported to you as 3 ppm and you think great we are well below the standard of 5 ppm when in fact the actual value is 15 ppm. You tech guys carry redundant gauges to reduce 'points of failure' and yet not a peep about possible points of failure in the air monitoring chain. What if your SPG consistently reported the same data point at each depth but this gauge depth was always fifteen feet shallower than the actual depth. If you can imagine the consequences of this diving then we are on the same page regarding the problems with using uncertified labs to test diver's air. As long as a shop is using an unaccredited lab the results cannot be relied upon and the divers are put at risk and the fill station owner likely greatly increases his liability exposure. Does the owner's liability insurance specify the type of lab to be used?
You might consider the fact that the MOL specifies as a minimum standard the use of an accredited lab. A judge who is looking for precedent in a bad air case likely would not look too favourably on a shop found to be using an unaccredited lab even if the fault was found with the lab analysis. The responsibility lies with the fill station owner to decide what lab he or she uses. Using a lab where the accuracy and precision of the results recieved is not known in my mind represents a large unknown liability to the fill station should there be a bad air incident from an accuracy problem.
You have our interest. Could you please provide some detailed information regarding air quality.
Just a couple of questions here to get the ball rolling. I done what you asked and read all 165 posts and have some unanswered questions.
1. A call to the OUC today and found that they are testing to the standard outlined by the CSA. Should that not be suffice?
2. Recently a couple people have been asked to step down from OUC postions. BTW this happened just about the same time this thread started. Humm
3. Someone mentioned that Dan Humble has lots of filtration so he should be ok. no certificate, yet he is still listed as one with acredited air, how so?
4. You indicated that a store hasn't tested in 3 years, but wouldn't mention it. But you have stated others by name that are not testing. How so?
5. Can you provide a list of any case of CO poisoning from scuba shop provided gas? You have made several references to diving mix to 200ft. Have you had a bad experience and that is the reasoning for the thread? Could you please provide us with a breif synopsis of your mixed diving history?
6. Who exactly are we the divers? Please do not post another essay, please try to provide just the details/facts names would be helpful? The reason I ask is that "we the divers" over here have never heard of you.
7. Finally for this post where can I find the actual listing of accredited testing facilities? I would like to see either the ministry of labour listing or the CSA listing in its genuine form.
If these documents are not availible on the web would be so kind as to provide contact names and phone numbers?
Sister J
Just a couple of questions here to get the ball rolling. I done what you asked and read all 165 posts and have some unanswered questions.
1. A call to the OUC today and found that they are testing to the standard outlined by the CSA. Should that not be suffice?
2. Recently a couple people have been asked to step down from OUC postions. BTW this happened just about the same time this thread started. Humm
3. Someone mentioned that Dan Humble has lots of filtration so he should be ok. no certificate, yet he is still listed as one with acredited air, how so?
4. You indicated that a store hasn't tested in 3 years, but wouldn't mention it. But you have stated others by name that are not testing. How so?
5. Can you provide a list of any case of CO poisoning from scuba shop provided gas? You have made several references to diving mix to 200ft. Have you had a bad experience and that is the reasoning for the thread? Could you please provide us with a breif synopsis of your mixed diving history?
6. Who exactly are we the divers? Please do not post another essay, please try to provide just the details/facts names would be helpful? The reason I ask is that "we the divers" over here have never heard of you.
7. Finally for this post where can I find the actual listing of accredited testing facilities? I would like to see either the ministry of labour listing or the CSA listing in its genuine form.
If these documents are not availible on the web would be so kind as to provide contact names and phone numbers?
Sister J
OP
pufferfish
Contributor
You have our interest. Could you please provide some detailed information regarding air quality.
Just a couple of questions here to get the ball rolling. I done what you asked and read all 165 posts and have some unanswered questions.
***SJ you are to be commended if you waded into the world's longest thread at this late stage. However the 'devil really is in the details' in all this air certification maze hence longer explanations are often necessary. I will try to be brief and try and refer you back to the thread if I know the answer is in there. Unforutnately I don't know how to do the cut and paste thing here so I apologize for the confusing format. I have tried to put my replies in between the ***.
1. A call to the OUC today and found that they are testing to the standard outlined by the CSA. Should that not be suffice?
***If you check more carefully you will find the OUC is not being truthful. The current standard is CSA Z180.1 (2000) which you can see at www.seatech.ns.ca under the compressed breathing gas page. The OUC is only testing to CSA Z180.1 (1985) with the number in brackets representing the year the standard was set. Where is the proof you say? Look at the Seatech page and the parameters tested and compare that to the parameters on the OUC cert on the shop's wall you frequent.
I suggest you call the Ministry of Labour yourself and ask what they will accept. I think you will find it is a Canadian accredited lab testing to CSA Z180.1-00. The OUC is neither accredited nor testing to the year 2000 standard.
Even if the shop doesn't have employees and not required to meet the MOL requirements, in the case of a bad air scenerio the judge will look to what the minimum standard is for fill stations with employees. Use of an unaccredited lab will likely be a large liability even if the the air was reported as okay by the lab but subsequently found to be bad by an accredited lab. The shop will assume all of the liablity. If I was a fill station owner I would seek clarification with my insurance carrier on this matter.
The other misinformation the OUC has been spreading lately is the cost of an analysis from an accredited lab. It is not $395 as I heard last week but $215 at Maxxam and $205 at Seatech. We are not talking about big bucks here guys to do two of these a year.
So I would take anything the OUC says as an attempt to preserve a source of income and business that they shouldn't be involved with in the first place. Leave the testing of diver's air to the professionals who offer reliable testing.***
2. Recently a couple people have been asked to step down from OUC postions. BTW this happened just about the same time this thread started. Humm
***Please don't start any conspiracy theories over this one. There are enough of those on those threads about the relationship between GUE, Jablonski, and Halcyon.
I personally am not a member of OUC and never have been. I have a personal interest in seeing them get out of the air testing business as it is substandard testing and endangers the lives of Ontario divers. Let the OUC reinvent itself as JimmyB suggest as an organization dedicated to promoting the sport of diving in Ontario not testing divers air.***
3. Someone mentioned that Dan Humble has lots of filtration so he should be ok. no certificate, yet he is still listed as one with acredited air, how so?
***You have not been thorough enough in your reading of the thread. If I am not mistaken he was never put on the list although people asked about the shop. We have been told he uses OUC and hence is not on the list. If he now is using an accredited lab then we will put him on the list. Scuba2000 was on the list as they claimed they meet the standard but further research revealed the claim was false. Their name was removed. There are now eight shops on the list all of which have been verified as bonifide certificates. I think there are two more in the works. Kingston is the only dive tourist area without an accredited shop. Remember accreditation should be seen a making good business sense too. ***
4. You indicated that a store hasn't tested in 3 years, but wouldn't mention it. But you have stated others by name that are not testing. How so?
***We wanted this list to be a 'positive list' of shops meeting the minimum standard as laid out by the MOL. I would estimate that less than ten percent of shops in Ontario currently meet MOL standards. We are not really interested in hearing in public about the ninety percent that do not meet the standard, the list would be huge. We would rather promote exemplary shops who do understand these issues and have taken steps on their own initiative to offer safe air to Ontario divers. You may be right in that there was a section where a store or two was mentioned indirectly for not testing for three years. Those shops will be taken to task behind the scenes. I can understand the confusion over the accredited/unaccredited lab issue but for a shop to not test for three years in just plain negligent. ***
5. Can you provide a list of any case of CO poisoning from scuba shop provided gas? You have made several references to diving mix to 200ft. Have you had a bad experience and that is the reasoning for the thread? Could you please provide us with a breif synopsis of your mixed diving history?
***This issue was just dealt with on the Nitrox shop thread in a question asked by Marvintpa. Very briefly bad air situations are likely very underreported as it was and in some parts of the country still is very common in a diving death for the diver's air to not be analysed. Have a look at the DAN Alert Diver article from May 1998 on the subject of CO in scuba tanks. They state, "At first glance, the deaths appear to represent a statistically small problem in diving safety, but the circumstances surrounding Diver 1's death may in fact point to a larger problem. Most states and municipalities do not require testing of a diver's air in the event of a fatality." This is also true in Ontario. Forty percent of diving fatalities were reported as initial injury unknown. If you don't test the air in a death you don't know whether or not air was an issue. I spoke with Lawrence Factor in Florida and 3% of their scuba air samples still are failing for CO greater than 10 ppm. That is a very significant failure rate and if we have shops in Ontario not testing for three years who knows what is in those tanks. I am sure you must have read Doppler's story of his tank poison last year. Remember the risk of getting a bad tank may be low but the consequences of breathing that tank may be lethal at depth surrounded by H2O. Diving in Ontario in the 21st century should not be a game of Russian roulette especially when we are talking about $500 bucks for two accredited tests.
Nope I have had no mixed gas experience and have no bad experiences personally with bad air therefore no axes to grind with any shop. Lots of bad food though and E. Coli! You do realize though the very OUC air you are mixing is the same 'air' us recreational divers dive with. Despite using medical grade helium or oxygen if your OUC air is suspect that medical grade goes out the window and the fill quality is unknown. If you want to see what an owner who does know what he is doing with mixed gases have a look here www.fillexpress.com but remember the CSA standard is different than IANTD or ANDI.***
6. Who exactly are we the divers? Please do not post another essay, please try to provide just the details/facts names would be helpful? The reason I ask is that "we the divers" over here have never heard of you.
***That is answered in the "essay". You actually want more, don't get me going Ah somehow you have heard of us as you are asking very good questions. Kind of like DIR you know. The more you present the logical facts the more divers seem to listen and want to change bad habits,...no different here with our air 'doing it right' message You don't need facts or details of the loose coalition of Ontario divers who are asking shop owners to meet their safety and ethical obligations to the divers in their communities they serve. Again no conspiracy here and none of the individuals involved own a shop or are involved in the dive industry. We all have jobs outside of diving. We would have thought these concepts of safe air would have been a 'no brainer' for fill station owners but it is apparent many would still rather pump their water through lead pipes despite scientfic evidence this is harmful to one's health.***
7. Finally for this post where can I find the actual listing of accredited testing facilities? I would like to see either the ministry of labour listing or the CSA listing in its genuine form.
*** There are only three accredited labs in Canada for testing compressed breathing gas.
1. Maxxam Analytics in Mississauga www.maxxam.ca Contact Linda Mazepa
2. Seatech in Nova Scotia www.seatech.ns.ca Contact Paul Fewer (diver as well) Lots of good info on his site.
3. Cantest in Burnaby, B.C.
Very simple three labs. Choose one on the basis of location, friendliness, price, and willingness to answer your technical questions.
The CSA only sets the standard for compressed breathing air. The accredited lab then tests the fill station's sample to that standard. If it passes the station is issued a six month Certificate of Conformance. You can see a Maxxam report and certificate on this fill station's web site.
www.aquariusscuba.com (tank fills)***
If these documents are not availible on the web would be so kind as to provide contact names and phone numbers?
Sister J
Well I hope that answers your questions Sista. I apologize for not knowing how to 'cut and paste' your questions with my answers. I am off to Toby for the weekend and will gladly fill up at either shop there who have nice recent Maxxam certs on the wall. Too bad the same can't be said for shops in other dive tourist areas like Kingston
Just a couple of questions here to get the ball rolling. I done what you asked and read all 165 posts and have some unanswered questions.
***SJ you are to be commended if you waded into the world's longest thread at this late stage. However the 'devil really is in the details' in all this air certification maze hence longer explanations are often necessary. I will try to be brief and try and refer you back to the thread if I know the answer is in there. Unforutnately I don't know how to do the cut and paste thing here so I apologize for the confusing format. I have tried to put my replies in between the ***.
1. A call to the OUC today and found that they are testing to the standard outlined by the CSA. Should that not be suffice?
***If you check more carefully you will find the OUC is not being truthful. The current standard is CSA Z180.1 (2000) which you can see at www.seatech.ns.ca under the compressed breathing gas page. The OUC is only testing to CSA Z180.1 (1985) with the number in brackets representing the year the standard was set. Where is the proof you say? Look at the Seatech page and the parameters tested and compare that to the parameters on the OUC cert on the shop's wall you frequent.
I suggest you call the Ministry of Labour yourself and ask what they will accept. I think you will find it is a Canadian accredited lab testing to CSA Z180.1-00. The OUC is neither accredited nor testing to the year 2000 standard.
Even if the shop doesn't have employees and not required to meet the MOL requirements, in the case of a bad air scenerio the judge will look to what the minimum standard is for fill stations with employees. Use of an unaccredited lab will likely be a large liability even if the the air was reported as okay by the lab but subsequently found to be bad by an accredited lab. The shop will assume all of the liablity. If I was a fill station owner I would seek clarification with my insurance carrier on this matter.
The other misinformation the OUC has been spreading lately is the cost of an analysis from an accredited lab. It is not $395 as I heard last week but $215 at Maxxam and $205 at Seatech. We are not talking about big bucks here guys to do two of these a year.
So I would take anything the OUC says as an attempt to preserve a source of income and business that they shouldn't be involved with in the first place. Leave the testing of diver's air to the professionals who offer reliable testing.***
2. Recently a couple people have been asked to step down from OUC postions. BTW this happened just about the same time this thread started. Humm
***Please don't start any conspiracy theories over this one. There are enough of those on those threads about the relationship between GUE, Jablonski, and Halcyon.
I personally am not a member of OUC and never have been. I have a personal interest in seeing them get out of the air testing business as it is substandard testing and endangers the lives of Ontario divers. Let the OUC reinvent itself as JimmyB suggest as an organization dedicated to promoting the sport of diving in Ontario not testing divers air.***3. Someone mentioned that Dan Humble has lots of filtration so he should be ok. no certificate, yet he is still listed as one with acredited air, how so?
***You have not been thorough enough in your reading of the thread. If I am not mistaken he was never put on the list although people asked about the shop. We have been told he uses OUC and hence is not on the list. If he now is using an accredited lab then we will put him on the list. Scuba2000 was on the list as they claimed they meet the standard but further research revealed the claim was false. Their name was removed. There are now eight shops on the list all of which have been verified as bonifide certificates. I think there are two more in the works. Kingston is the only dive tourist area without an accredited shop. Remember accreditation should be seen a making good business sense too. ***
4. You indicated that a store hasn't tested in 3 years, but wouldn't mention it. But you have stated others by name that are not testing. How so?
***We wanted this list to be a 'positive list' of shops meeting the minimum standard as laid out by the MOL. I would estimate that less than ten percent of shops in Ontario currently meet MOL standards. We are not really interested in hearing in public about the ninety percent that do not meet the standard, the list would be huge. We would rather promote exemplary shops who do understand these issues and have taken steps on their own initiative to offer safe air to Ontario divers. You may be right in that there was a section where a store or two was mentioned indirectly for not testing for three years. Those shops will be taken to task behind the scenes. I can understand the confusion over the accredited/unaccredited lab issue but for a shop to not test for three years in just plain negligent. ***
5. Can you provide a list of any case of CO poisoning from scuba shop provided gas? You have made several references to diving mix to 200ft. Have you had a bad experience and that is the reasoning for the thread? Could you please provide us with a breif synopsis of your mixed diving history?
***This issue was just dealt with on the Nitrox shop thread in a question asked by Marvintpa. Very briefly bad air situations are likely very underreported as it was and in some parts of the country still is very common in a diving death for the diver's air to not be analysed. Have a look at the DAN Alert Diver article from May 1998 on the subject of CO in scuba tanks. They state, "At first glance, the deaths appear to represent a statistically small problem in diving safety, but the circumstances surrounding Diver 1's death may in fact point to a larger problem. Most states and municipalities do not require testing of a diver's air in the event of a fatality." This is also true in Ontario. Forty percent of diving fatalities were reported as initial injury unknown. If you don't test the air in a death you don't know whether or not air was an issue. I spoke with Lawrence Factor in Florida and 3% of their scuba air samples still are failing for CO greater than 10 ppm. That is a very significant failure rate and if we have shops in Ontario not testing for three years who knows what is in those tanks. I am sure you must have read Doppler's story of his tank poison last year. Remember the risk of getting a bad tank may be low but the consequences of breathing that tank may be lethal at depth surrounded by H2O. Diving in Ontario in the 21st century should not be a game of Russian roulette especially when we are talking about $500 bucks for two accredited tests.
Nope I have had no mixed gas experience and have no bad experiences personally with bad air therefore no axes to grind with any shop. Lots of bad food though and E. Coli! You do realize though the very OUC air you are mixing is the same 'air' us recreational divers dive with. Despite using medical grade helium or oxygen if your OUC air is suspect that medical grade goes out the window and the fill quality is unknown. If you want to see what an owner who does know what he is doing with mixed gases have a look here www.fillexpress.com but remember the CSA standard is different than IANTD or ANDI.***
6. Who exactly are we the divers? Please do not post another essay, please try to provide just the details/facts names would be helpful? The reason I ask is that "we the divers" over here have never heard of you.
***That is answered in the "essay". You actually want more, don't get me going
Ah somehow you have heard of us as you are asking very good questions. Kind of like DIR you know. The more you present the logical facts the more divers seem to listen and want to change bad habits,...no different here with our air 'doing it right' message You don't need facts or details of the loose coalition of Ontario divers who are asking shop owners to meet their safety and ethical obligations to the divers in their communities they serve. Again no conspiracy here and none of the individuals involved own a shop or are involved in the dive industry. We all have jobs outside of diving. We would have thought these concepts of safe air would have been a 'no brainer' for fill station owners but it is apparent many would still rather pump their water through lead pipes despite scientfic evidence this is harmful to one's health.***7. Finally for this post where can I find the actual listing of accredited testing facilities? I would like to see either the ministry of labour listing or the CSA listing in its genuine form.
*** There are only three accredited labs in Canada for testing compressed breathing gas.
1. Maxxam Analytics in Mississauga www.maxxam.ca Contact Linda Mazepa
2. Seatech in Nova Scotia www.seatech.ns.ca Contact Paul Fewer (diver as well) Lots of good info on his site.
3. Cantest in Burnaby, B.C.
Very simple three labs. Choose one on the basis of location, friendliness, price, and willingness to answer your technical questions.
The CSA only sets the standard for compressed breathing air. The accredited lab then tests the fill station's sample to that standard. If it passes the station is issued a six month Certificate of Conformance. You can see a Maxxam report and certificate on this fill station's web site.
www.aquariusscuba.com (tank fills)***
If these documents are not availible on the web would be so kind as to provide contact names and phone numbers?
Sister J
Well I hope that answers your questions Sista. I apologize for not knowing how to 'cut and paste' your questions with my answers. I am off to Toby for the weekend and will gladly fill up at either shop there who have nice recent Maxxam certs on the wall. Too bad the same can't be said for shops in other dive tourist areas like Kingston
James Pate
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Pufferfish
I do not think you have answered any of the questions critically at all. All you are passing here are personal judgements and limited value statements. Please point us to the Ministry of Labour reg and section number which lays out the minimum requirements. We are not trying to be rude we need the details inorder to evaluate what you are saying here.
How can you justify passing percentages of shops that conform to or do not conform to the standard without real data to back it up. And you have yet to post any real data.
You have not answer the question of who "we the divers" are. The essay that you posted is just more of the same. You have yet to present us with any facts or data to support the basis of your argument. Please present us with the proof that "we the divers " actually exist and in what numbers. We want to know.
Personally, I like the GUE JJ Halcyon conspiracy theory. I think it is rather funny. IF only you knew!!!!!!!
You have continually stated that OUC should not be testing air. Why not? Their equipment is upto date. They recently purchased a new analyizer. And according to the certificate that I looked at they are testing to the 2000 standard. Please bear in mind I am no expert here. I am looking for answers.
sJ did not ask what www.seatech.ns.ca has to say regarding the Z180 standard. She asked and now I am asking for the the Ministry of Labours document which lists "what is an accredited tester" and "the list of companies". If you cannot produce the document then you really have no basis for you argument. If you have done your research then you must have the document readily available. If you cannot produce the document; at least have a reference number of the document that we may aquire a copy for yourselves.
I have not read anything on this thread to date that supports your position. Do not hold back. Bring the information and data to the table. If you really want to see divers take action all you have to do is present our dive team with the relevant facts to support your claim.
I appreciate you are heading out for a dive. Enjoy Toby but when you get back present us with your documentation. Once again do not hold back we are looking for your 'A' Game.
In parting, we are not trying to be rude we need the details inorder to evaluate what you are saying here.
Safe dives
James
I do not think you have answered any of the questions critically at all. All you are passing here are personal judgements and limited value statements. Please point us to the Ministry of Labour reg and section number which lays out the minimum requirements. We are not trying to be rude we need the details inorder to evaluate what you are saying here.
How can you justify passing percentages of shops that conform to or do not conform to the standard without real data to back it up. And you have yet to post any real data.
You have not answer the question of who "we the divers" are. The essay that you posted is just more of the same. You have yet to present us with any facts or data to support the basis of your argument. Please present us with the proof that "we the divers " actually exist and in what numbers. We want to know.
Personally, I like the GUE JJ Halcyon conspiracy theory. I think it is rather funny. IF only you knew!!!!!!!
You have continually stated that OUC should not be testing air. Why not? Their equipment is upto date. They recently purchased a new analyizer. And according to the certificate that I looked at they are testing to the 2000 standard. Please bear in mind I am no expert here. I am looking for answers.
sJ did not ask what www.seatech.ns.ca has to say regarding the Z180 standard. She asked and now I am asking for the the Ministry of Labours document which lists "what is an accredited tester" and "the list of companies". If you cannot produce the document then you really have no basis for you argument. If you have done your research then you must have the document readily available. If you cannot produce the document; at least have a reference number of the document that we may aquire a copy for yourselves.
I have not read anything on this thread to date that supports your position. Do not hold back. Bring the information and data to the table. If you really want to see divers take action all you have to do is present our dive team with the relevant facts to support your claim.
I appreciate you are heading out for a dive. Enjoy Toby but when you get back present us with your documentation. Once again do not hold back we are looking for your 'A' Game.
In parting, we are not trying to be rude we need the details inorder to evaluate what you are saying here.
Safe dives
James
SneakyB'tard
Contributor
I am part of the we.
I am a diver that sees the potential for failure within the air purity system. By demanding that air suppliers conform with the highest tests, we raise the bar on quality.
Everyone gets upset if their DVD is scratched at purchase, or that their car chugs on some brands of gas or oil, yet when it comes to a product ( and thats what air is a consumer end product) that we breath we are less wary and concerned. Just get the fill get on the boat and complain if the boat is slow or the waves are too high.
Air quality signs and symptoms are usually latent. If I breath 'bad air' I may blame my signs and symptoms on motion sickness or that greasy McMuffin I had..or maybe I was tired so I got Narc'd sat a shallow depth.
There is lots of proof of poor air standards and low quality. Puffer has named the shops that pump Z180 air. There are shops that pump clean air that just isn't tested to Z180....they are still good, but need that cert to satisfy my needs and my families.
Until the coroners office tests for the possibility of impurities in breathing air...there will be no proof.
As fr the OUC they are good for diver representation and information...not lab testing.
Just because my plumber has a dentist chair doesn't mean he is doing my dental work!
I am a diver that sees the potential for failure within the air purity system. By demanding that air suppliers conform with the highest tests, we raise the bar on quality.
Everyone gets upset if their DVD is scratched at purchase, or that their car chugs on some brands of gas or oil, yet when it comes to a product ( and thats what air is a consumer end product) that we breath we are less wary and concerned. Just get the fill get on the boat and complain if the boat is slow or the waves are too high.
Air quality signs and symptoms are usually latent. If I breath 'bad air' I may blame my signs and symptoms on motion sickness or that greasy McMuffin I had..or maybe I was tired so I got Narc'd sat a shallow depth.
There is lots of proof of poor air standards and low quality. Puffer has named the shops that pump Z180 air. There are shops that pump clean air that just isn't tested to Z180....they are still good, but need that cert to satisfy my needs and my families.
Until the coroners office tests for the possibility of impurities in breathing air...there will be no proof.
As fr the OUC they are good for diver representation and information...not lab testing.
Just because my plumber has a dentist chair doesn't mean he is doing my dental work!
SneakyBastard
That makes two of you now where are the rest.
We have not asked about plumbers, dentists or DVD. We want to see the documentation that defines the problem. The documentation that defines an accredited lab and the documentation that names the accredited facilities. We will cannot and will not accept a list of preferred air fill stations just because you have listed them here.
Once again I will say that we are interested. But you have to produce the documentation. If you cannot do so then it would appear that you have no grounds for the unqualified statements that you continually rehash throughout this thread. You cannot expect us to sit here and say that it must be true because you have said so. Only idiots do that. Please provide the evidence and the documentation. Drop the BS.
With the two of you being we the divers. Please list your qualifications, experience and/or reading and training that makes you an authority to be adhered to regarding air quality.
We all want clean air to breath. Dive shops want to pump clean air (it is in their best interest). Yet although you have been asked to define and prove the problem in a critical fashion several times throughout this thread and on the 'nitrox' thread; you have been unable to do so. Therefore at this point it would appear that might not be a problem after all.
We asked why the OUC should not test gas and you posted more of the same personal opinion that is posted throughout the thread. If you cannot address the question critically and factually then leave it alone. With your reasoning the supposed accredited test facilities should also stay out of the gas analysis field because they have other interests such as testing solvents and chemicals. You have an audience here with a modicum of intelligence and education. Now cater to us with the facts, details and documentation. Once again we need the information to assess our position and evaluate the problem. We will not blindly follow anyone on a just trust me venture. If you have no documentation then you have no case.
As James said We are looking forward to your A Game. We are very interested in what factual data you have to offer, please do not hold back.
sJ
That makes two of you now where are the rest.
We have not asked about plumbers, dentists or DVD. We want to see the documentation that defines the problem. The documentation that defines an accredited lab and the documentation that names the accredited facilities. We will cannot and will not accept a list of preferred air fill stations just because you have listed them here.
Once again I will say that we are interested. But you have to produce the documentation. If you cannot do so then it would appear that you have no grounds for the unqualified statements that you continually rehash throughout this thread. You cannot expect us to sit here and say that it must be true because you have said so. Only idiots do that. Please provide the evidence and the documentation. Drop the BS.
With the two of you being we the divers. Please list your qualifications, experience and/or reading and training that makes you an authority to be adhered to regarding air quality.
We all want clean air to breath. Dive shops want to pump clean air (it is in their best interest). Yet although you have been asked to define and prove the problem in a critical fashion several times throughout this thread and on the 'nitrox' thread; you have been unable to do so. Therefore at this point it would appear that might not be a problem after all.
We asked why the OUC should not test gas and you posted more of the same personal opinion that is posted throughout the thread. If you cannot address the question critically and factually then leave it alone. With your reasoning the supposed accredited test facilities should also stay out of the gas analysis field because they have other interests such as testing solvents and chemicals. You have an audience here with a modicum of intelligence and education. Now cater to us with the facts, details and documentation. Once again we need the information to assess our position and evaluate the problem. We will not blindly follow anyone on a just trust me venture. If you have no documentation then you have no case.
As James said We are looking forward to your A Game. We are very interested in what factual data you have to offer, please do not hold back.
sJ
James Pate
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If you see the potential for failure then you must have evidence and documentation to support your postion. Show us the evidence. We are interested, now persuade us of your postion by presenting the documentation to us. No more personal opinions or feelings. Provide the evidence
Then provide us with the proof. We are interested and need to see the evidence inorder to evaluate the weight of your argument. As sJ has said we cannot subscribe to your list of preferred air station just because pufferfish says so. Only idiots would do something like that. "Trust Me Ventures" are for the lame and weak minded. We require and request the documentation that supports your claims. We are not interested in DVD plumbers, dentists, mcmuffins or cars. We are trying to get a look at the documentation you have regarding air quality. We are not interested in company websites. We have even narrow the field of discussion. Just show us the Ministry of Labour documents that outline the criteria for an accredited test facility and that lists the accredited companies.
Does this mean a coroner cannot detect CO or Co2 poisoning in a corpse? Be careful in how you proceed from here, as we have a host of medical knowledge available to us on the GUE Quest list.
Please cut the crap and produce the documentation.
James
KeyserSoze
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Our pledge is to offer divers and educators a new alternative- one that is not afraid to take a stand for safety over financial gain and quality over quantity.
I believe that quote came form your website GUE Guy and Gal
These guys are stating the need to improve quality and safety.....maybe you are on the GUE bandwagon but you don't follow the doctrine at all.
"man's mind once stretched.........." how does that go?
Look on the internet....Deaths all the time due to air contamination in commercial divers......
I have seen many dive shops that have staff that can't tell the time let alone fill a tank properly....I'm saying subscribe to the list...be open look yourself...learn...expand your mind
I believe that quote came form your website GUE Guy and Gal
These guys are stating the need to improve quality and safety.....maybe you are on the GUE bandwagon but you don't follow the doctrine at all.
"man's mind once stretched.........." how does that go?
Look on the internet....Deaths all the time due to air contamination in commercial divers......
I have seen many dive shops that have staff that can't tell the time let alone fill a tank properly....I'm saying subscribe to the list...be open look yourself...learn...expand your mind
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