Air Quality Certificate

I am aware of biannual CSA testing required for air fill stations?

  • And always ask to see a certificate every 6 months

    Votes: 6 23.1%
  • Sometimes ask

    Votes: 3 11.5%
  • Never ask

    Votes: 11 42.3%
  • What is an air certificate?

    Votes: 6 23.1%

  • Total voters
    26
  • Poll closed .

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seahunter once bubbled...
I have been trying without success to get the names of stores that according to some memebers are pumping bad air. The problem you see, is that divers ***** but do nothing. Then they ***** some more when the situation doesn't improve!!

Assuming the comments from the divers are truthful (maybe that's the catch), there can be no harm, in fact, nothing but good from naming the stores. No one can get into trouble so long as the intent was honest and based on first hand information.

Seahunter don't start putting words in people's mouths. No one here has said a particular shop is pumping bad air but we have said some shops including PADI 5 star facilities have not tested their air since July 2000. The potential for bad air from a compressor which has not had the air tested for three years is very high as likely the same operator who doesn't give a **** about testing the air he lets his employees use and sells to the public is also cutting corners on filter and oil changes too.

Listen if you want proof about the lack of testing just put on some dark sun glasses, a trench coat, a wig, and start checking all the PADI shops between Brampton and Whitby. I can tell you if you exclude testing by the OUC as they are nothing but an unaccredited lab in the woods you will find over 95% of the shops have not tested in over a year. If you want more proof go to all the shops not just the PADI ones and you will be equally as dismayed at the lack of testing. Sometimes it is necessary to come down off your mountain and cross the moat in order to see what is going on around oneself instead of fabricating the reality one would like to see. Your expectation-reality gap with regards to the status of air in this province is almost wide as that between Mel Lastmen and his lack of knowledge about SARS and the WHO.:boom:

If you want more facts I can tell you NO shop with employees between Brockville and Brampton as of the May long weekend and this Seahunter INCLUDES your shop too has met the very basic MOL requirements of biannual testing to CSA Z180.1. In Kingston one shop has not tested for a few years and the other which claims to be a 5 star PADI facility and offers trimix uses the OUC where one doesn't know whether the reported CO level of 2 ppm is that or 20 ppm as the OUC has no external accrediting agency checking on their accuracy and precision of testing. If I was a technical diver in Ontario I would be very hesitant to take any blended mix where the air was being checked by OUC. Just remember that any contamination found at surface is multiplied by the absolute pressure at depth. In other words a CO level of 10 ppm on surface at 200 feet would have the same negative health effect as a CO level 70 ppm. This goes for all the other potential contaminants as well. Shops in the States blending air with oxygen or helium insist on OCA air ( oxygen compatible air to ANDI or IANTD standards). Instead here in the Brockville-GTA corridor we have shops blending air using OUC tested air which is then taken to over 200 feet. In Brockville it is the same dismal story as in Kingston. One is lucky to get a recent OUC cert and the one shop blending gas is relying on OUC testing as well.

My message here is that the state of air testing in this province is dismal. I have been in eight shops between Kingston and Brampton and seven had not tested their air in over a year. There is no point in having a negative list as we would have to put over 95% of the fill stations on the list if we were ask for the very minimum MOL requirement of two tests to CSA Z180.1 be met. It is far better to post those few shops who have made the effort to offer certified air to their customers. I contend once there is one shop in town doing testing to CSA Z180 the rest will be forced to follow suit or else lose business. Please patronize and offer a pat on the back to those shops who have made an effort to offer their customers CSA Z180 air as the MOL requires.
That is what our certified air list encourages.

Cat and SH I agree with you in that if one knows of shops not meeting the standard they should be reported. Yes the worst offenders should be chased down first like those who have not tested since July 2000. Then those who are using OUC and then those who are only testing to CGA Gr E level.

The problem is we are not the air police. We all are the air police. Every individual diver in this province should be insisting his or her fill station test to CSA Z180.1 by a certified Canadian lab. One of the goals of this thread was to provide the necessary info to the divers of Ontario so as to confront their shops about these issues. Let me tell you anyone who has read this thread from start to finish knows more about air quality and compressors than most scuba instructors and shop owners. You are now armed so go out and do some of the field work yourselves.

This thread has highlighted the problems in this province with the lack of air testing to a recognized level (CSA Z180.1-00) and provided you with the ammunition to confront or educate the delinquent shops. About 95% of the shops are not testing at all so there is a lot of work to be done by all divers in applying the necessary pressure to their fill stations. Remember if you the customer doesn't insist on proper air certification it may be some time before the MOL, PADI, or NAUI get around to doing so.

I can assure the readers of this thread though that the worst case offenders (no testing for over a year) are being brought to task behind the scenes. Just remember that this takes time to write letters, call various people to get the facts (like Ruby Ochoa at Trace Analytics), and follow up on these findings. A lot of this is done on people's spare time after their day jobs. Please be patient and change will happen but it will happen sooner when the divers in their local areas like Kingston and Brockville also apply pressure on their fill stations to meet the MOL law or those requirements of their agency affiliations. Just remember complacency will eventually kill and somewhere sometime with no air testing bad air will be pumped. Just hope you are not on the receiving end. It is out there as Doppler found out last year with his OMS tanks.

So just as the letter from Trace Analytics didn't magically appear here remember things are happening slowly behind the scenes and you should see that list of shops meeting MOL requirements start to grow over the summer.
 
A fine example where one shop raises the bar and the others in the area will follow.

I have verified that Diver's Den in Tobermory now has a Maxxam Analytics certificate from June 12/2003. They have the third largest fill station in Canada (ten tanks at once) and very friendly staff.

Congratulations to Diver's Den for bringing their air certification up to a level that the Ontario (and US) diver can feel confident in.

This now means that both dive shops in Tobermory have met or exceeded the CSA Z180.1-00 requirements. Please pat these shop owners on the back for taking the lead in the province of providing pure and certified air to their dive customers.

Congratulations to both shops :)
 
The following Ontario shops have a recent Canadian air certificate showing they meet or exceed the requirements of CSA Z180.1 standard for compressed breathing air.

1. Dive Center Ottawa www.divecenter.ca
2. Ron's Scuba Cornwall
3. Dolphinos Ottawa www.dolphinos.com
4. G&S Watersports Tobermory www.gswatersports.com
5. Diver's Den Tobermory www.diversden.ca (web site needs updating as it still states OUC )

Tests by the OUC are not recognized as certified. Certifications must be less than six months old and preferably less than three months old.

Still waiting to hear about any Brockville or Kingston shops. If I have missed anyone please post the shop's name.

When you do buy fills from these shops knowing they have made a genuine effort to provide divers with safe air please tell the owner this is why you are patronizing their store. Postive reinforcement works wonders.
 
pufferfish once bubbled...
The following Ontario shops have a recent Canadian air certificate showing they meet or exceed the requirements of CSA Z180.1 standard for compressed breathing air.

1. Dive Center Ottawa www.divecenter.ca
2. Ron's Scuba Cornwall
3. Dolphinos Ottawa www.dolphinos.com
4. G&S Watersports Tobermory www.gswatersports.com
5. Diver's Den Tobermory www.diversden.ca (web site needs updating as it still states OUC )

Tests by the OUC are not recognized as certified. Certifications must be less than six months old and preferably less than three months old.

Still waiting to hear about any Brockville or Kingston shops. If I have missed anyone please post the shop's name.

When you do buy fills from these shops knowing they have made a genuine effort to provide divers with safe air please tell the owner this is why you are patronizing their store. Postive reinforcement works wonders.

It all becomes a little clearer now, Pufferfish. Seeing as how you own/work for or what ever for Diver Center Ottawa it does you a great service to stir up crap over certification for this and that the same way you claimed or behind everyones back claimed that all Ottawa stores were flogging 'bad air'. Coincidentaly this was at the time that the fire station contracts were up for bid. Not a bad deal if you want to perform a character assination and make a little money at the same time. No biggy. I guess we should all travel to Stittsville to on a semi weekly basis basis to get air as that is the only place in the world that has safe air to breath. Good grief!
 
The Tick once bubbled...


It all becomes a little clearer now, Pufferfish. Seeing as how you own/work for or what ever for Diver Center Ottawa it does you a great service to stir up crap over certification for this and that the same way you claimed or behind everyones back claimed that all Ottawa stores were flogging 'bad air'. Coincidentaly this was at the time that the fire station contracts were up for bid. Not a bad deal if you want to perform a character assination and make a little money at the same time. No biggy. I guess we should all travel to Stittsville to on a semi weekly basis basis to get air as that is the only place in the world that has safe air to breath. Good grief!
Hey Tick you are looking really foolish now. Several of us on the board know Pufferfish. He is a Doctor in Toronto. So do you work for or are you one of the many owners of KDS?
 
The Tick once bubbled...


It all becomes a little clearer now, Pufferfish. Seeing as how you own/work for or what ever for Diver Center Ottawa it does you a great service to stir up crap over certification for this and that the same way you claimed or behind everyones back claimed that all Ottawa stores were flogging 'bad air'. Coincidentaly this was at the time that the fire station contracts were up for bid. Not a bad deal if you want to perform a character assination and make a little money at the same time. No biggy. I guess we should all travel to Stittsville to on a semi weekly basis basis to get air as that is the only place in the world that has safe air to breath. Good grief!
READ the post tick it seems to list a few more stores than 1 or does Puffer own a string of dive shops that we don't know about?
You seem to have concluded that Ottawa stores flog bad air, I haven't seen any post that singled out a specific area but Puffer has been refering to a province wide problem of non compliance.
 
Ordinarily he was insane, but he had lucid moments when he was merely stupid.
Heinrich Heine (1797 - 1856)
 
Puffer's long and detailed post is one of the few I've seen from him that was reasonably logical and controlled from start to finish.

His vociferous efforts to motivate the divers to 'police the air' are commendable. On a recent PM to GTA, I reiterated the same desire as, in fact, I have clearly done on numerous occasions in this thread - so, puffer is certainly right on the point that this thread has been beneficial. He now accepts that it is the diver's responsibility to police the air. The divers must speak up and complain publicly about bad air stations and support and promote the good ones. No one else will, should nor do we want them to do that.
BTW I'm still waiting for the names of the 7 'bad' PADI 5 Star Facilities!

Now for the bad news:
1. I am bald and look ridiculous in a wig. I can and do walk into any dive store anywhere in NA and talk to the owner or staff anytime I want. It does no good to be a 'sneaky bastard'. If the air certificate is not on the wall, they're one of the bad ones already. Agreed?!
2. I resent the accusation that I'm an absentee owner and I resent the comparison to Mel. I was in the water at Kirkfield putting down the plane for divers to enjoy. I had dirt on my hands from 2 days of work on the airplane to get it ready. If I didn't seem concerned about the 'bad air' situation in Ontario, it's not because I wasn't there - it's because I did not and STILL HAVE NOT seen nor heard of any bad air problems! Several of you have stated that dive stores don't have up-to-date air test certificates and that's a concern but it's not a 'bad air' problem.
Let's work together to get that situation corrected before it becomes a 'bad air' problem.
3. G&S is a fine store and has great air. They are our recommended shop in Tobermory. We take over 500 divers to Tobermory each summer and we use the services of G&S. But, the number of filler whips has no bearing on the size of the fill station. I or any store can add as many fill whips as we'd like. The CFM of the compressor and the storage capacity is the measure of size of an air station. An example to use for comparison would be ours with 21 CFM (new) and 30 - 450 cu ft. 4500 psi bottles. I can fill 25 scuba tanks at once and over and over again for quite some time without even starting the compressor. When I was last at G&S they had two smaller compressors running with a modest bank. The compressors ran almost continuously through the weekend (sometimes all night too) just to keep up.
4. So, using the Scubaboard system (I guess you all agreed when I was away that puffer IS the spokesman for the divers on this board!), we can get air at any one of 3 stores in the Ottawa region or in Tobermory. Gonna' be a long summer.
5. You're still misleading the readers either intentionally or through ignorance by continuing to state that air tests must be made by a Canadian air test center. You are so darn picky most of the time it's strange you can't get it straight that any air test center that is certified to test to CSA standards is OK - like Trace.
6. Z180.1 is no magic potion. It is the current requirement by the MOL for air for employees. Whoopdee-doo! That doesn't make it perfect nor even necessary for divers. We've been diving for years with air standards much different from Z180. For the last many years divers have safely dove all over the world using air tested to Grade E. Please explain what's wrong with Grade E for divers or are you suggesting that the standards imposed by the MOL automatically make all other standards unsafe? Realize before you answer that there are one heck of a lot more divers diving safely using air at Grade E than at Z180 (like maybe 100 to 1). I'm not suggesting Z180 isn't good or shouldn't be utilized - I just question the air of superiority that you assign to the MOL. Aren't they just down the hall from the MOH and the MOE?
7. In the same vein, again you're not being completely accurate despite your nomal pickiness. Z180 is NOT required by stores for their customers as your last post says.
8. Please don't muddy the waters by suggesting that all divers need nor even want air for their scuba diving based on the additional requirements needed by high O2 mixes for tec divers. Different world, different standards, different thread!

BTW, you're right about Trace. They do strive to please their customers (unlike Maxxam, Novamann or NoM'am or whoever they are) and have just sent their customers an email indicating they will supply air tests to CSA Z180 for just $20 more than the normal Grade E. This now introduces the bizarre situation wherein I will get 2 tests each year to CGA Grade E and 2 tests each year to CSA Z180. All because I have to cater to at least 3 different groups - CSA to make the MOL on behalf of my employees happy (2 Z180 tests annually); CGA to make PADI happy (2 additional air tests annually); my customers who want good air as cheap as possible.
 
Hello The Tick,
Welcome to the board but may I recommend you stop, think, and pause before acting (posting) further. If you had read this thread even the last few pages you would not have made the comments that you have above. Not a good strategy to wear out your welcome after so few posts.

While I would love to own a dive shop (ok maybe not) I have no affilitation in any form whatsoever to the shop you have mentioned. I have never been in it or spoken to its owner. The Dive Center in Ottawa was only the first shop someone posted here as having met the CSA Z180.1 air requirements. I live in the GTA and do not earn a penny from the dive industry. Diving for me is just a hobby I enjoy.

May I suggest you redeem yourself by reading the post on page 6 entitled "Who we are?". After that if you have something positive to contribute please do.
 
The Tick once bubbled...


It all becomes a little clearer now, Pufferfish. Seeing as how you own/work for or what ever for Diver Center Ottawa it does you a great service to stir up crap over certification for this ....

SNIPPED


Hi The Tick:

Well, I don't know of a really nice way to cushion the blow here mate, but you are so out of line and so wrong!

Late this morning, I had a very long and very interesting conversation with Puffer from his office somewhere in the GTA... and unless I was smoking weed and hearing things wrong, he sounded exactly like a physician... which is basically what his profile says he is... SO I don't think he's involved with any scuba stores... and, for the record, neither am I.

As for the reasons he's "stirring up crap" over air quality, why don't you ask him... better yet, read his posts. I think you'll find his motives are quite unselfish... or at least smack of enlightened self-interest.


I don't know how you feel about apologizing, but you might wanna try practicing it... my opinion is you owe one. And if you have a problem with that, PM me. Keep your illogical nonsense off the board...

"Facts neither true nor false, they are merely facts." The Tick in a lucid moment....
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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