Andrea Doria lawsuit dismissed

[MikeFerrara]

Most often people feel that if they have the card that they're qualified. This guy made it to an advanced trimix course in less than two years and I've heard in under 100 dives. I didn't even think that was even withing standards but it might be an instructors descretion kind of thing.

In all honesty, what do you really think his skill level was? Don't tell me, just answer for yourself.

A trimix training dive 100 miles off shore? In a place known for it's bad conditions? Based on depth, the dive was within the limits of the class he was taking. But folks...it is the instructors job to make a call based on conditions (and that would include the proximity to emergency services). It's also the instructors job to asses a students readiness to take a class.

How do you really think this overweight, out of shape and apparantly ill student would fare in an honest preassesment with a whole year and a halfs experience behind him?

Even if the guy was Gods gift to diving and a superman I'm not sure it makes sense to take a trimix student to the Doria.

Check out the article "To far tooo Fast" (I think it is) on the IUCRR page...IUCRR.com

 

[Laser]

As friend of mine posted to another board, I think page 3 line 8 is the main reason this man was on this charter. Here is the link

http://www.wahoo2001.com/Files/Highlighted Doria Death Chris Murley.pdf

 

[Genesis]

He passed out and expired before decending.

Look we all have not only the right but the responsibility to NOT get in the water if we are not feeling well, or otherwise unable to participate.

I have personally sat out dives before when I was just feeling "off" - I couldn't identify the precise reason, but if I'm not up to snuff, I'm not getting wet.

In any event, the deceased never decended on the dive in question. It is likely that he suffered some kind of medical problem on the surface, which ultimately caused him to lose consciousness and drown.

There is no causality here linking the death to the dive, as the death didn't happen on the dive, as he had not yet decended!

He might have (in fact, probably would have) expired had he simply gone swimming at that particular point in time!

 

[MHK]

Having been on the Seeker and having brought one of their crew member's bodies back to the boat after a fatal Doria dive I'd like to add a few thoughts for consideration.

In the case of this fatality, I think both parties had some responsibility and it's sad that we live in such a litigation happy society where everything is boiled down to courts because I believe beyond the scope of the courts ruling much can be learned from this incident. I also think that the ruling provides a false sense of security to the Seeker and to the TDI instructor involved.

The starting premise for this discussion should be, and to a large degree has been, centered around personal responsibility. I believe firmly that the overwhelming majority of the burden is owned by the diver. I hope that this thought won't get lost in what I'm about to say, because I think it's important to note that the diver is ultimately responsible.

Now that being said, I do believe that the instructor and the boat operator [ to a lesser extent in the instant case] bears some responsibility. What many may not realize about this fatality is that economics played a vital role in what happened. The Seeker has been dedicating several months of its busiest time of the year to do the more expensive trips to the Doria. Weather in the last few years has made getting blown out more likely then actually getting to the Doria, such to the extent that Danny [ skipper of the Seeker] changed his policy relating to refunds caused by weather. THis incident took place prior to the change when had you been blown out there was no charge. It's important to note that this was one of two paying customers on the trip. I read the court transcript today and it was very cleverly worded in that it said 10 passengers and crew. But the fact remains that his payment was the straw that broke the camel's back. If he didn't pay, they didn't go. If he paid they all went. It's a common practice on the Seeker that many that crew for Danny during the lean months, jump on the Doria trips as a quid pro quo. Accordingly there was a fair amount of peer pressure and in my view lead to a poor decision. If the instructor had any such reservations about this guys training or mental focus then holding his c-card hostage until after the trip was a poor excuse for allowing him to do the dive(s), but trying to appear as though he was concerned. The boat and the instructor should have been morally [ I'm not a lawyer and can't speak to legal issues] but I'm speaking to a moral courage to say " You aren't ready, and you can't go".. Sadly, Danny relied on the instructor to vouch for the diver and they went anyway. The results are manifest..

Please don't turn this into a legal analysis since I'm not a lawyer and my comments are meant to speak to a moral responsibility that leaders of the dive industry should abide by. Money shouldn't dictate who goes to the Doria because too many lives have been lost there and allowing students on the boat is questionable, at the very least..

Later

 

[Charlie99]

The Coast Guard investigation link that Laser posted is very informative.

While the instructor may not have legal liability, it does appear that he exercised very poor judgement and chose to ignore many signs that Murley was neither qualified nor in appropriate physical condition for the dives.

Does anybody know if he is still a TDI trimix instructor?

 

[jbd]

well have died at home while mowing the lawn or as my neighbor a few years back simply sitting in a chair.

The mans comments that he was drowning even though he was at the surface and bouyant indicate too me that his cardiovascular medical problems may have been the cause of his troubles and resultant demise.

The listing of drowning as the cause of death seems somewhat lacking to me. I think there is more to it than simple drowning.

 

[Diver Lori]

This is not this instructor's first incident of poor judgement and won't be his last I am sure. He's moved away from Cincinnati and is living somewhere on the East Coast last I heard. It was rumored he was pursuing cave instructor certification, but to date I've not seen his name on any agency roster for such. I've met him several times when he lived here and he comes across as very knowledgeable, but those of us who knew him and had enough knowledge to make a sensible choice steered clear of his trips.

I recently saw two students of one of his replacement's up at a quarry recently. Both of these students are preparing for a trip to the Doria next year or so with the same shop. In my observation, this shop has NOT learned anything from their past mistakes. They knowingly take on students who are visually unfit, with health issues and experience lacking. Yes, there may be waivers and they may not be legally bound.....but morally they are guilty and I am sure "what goes around, comes around."

 

[divemed06]

After having read that link all I have to say......why! Why would a diver exercise such poor judgement? Why would an instructor exercise such poor judgement? Why? Listen, I'm a health professional and I've seen my share of "unfortunate/unlucky" accidents/deaths... But for Pete's sake...lets put things in our favour! It just isn't worth it. I think even a non-diver reading that link would be able to tell you that lots went wrong! Is it our responsibility as human beings to bring attention to these sort of problems; I think so. Let's all do ourselves a favour and not only dive safe.... but dive smart or just don't dive!!! Instructors... if you're at the point where $$$ is your primary source of motivation for teaching, please, get out of it and go dive for fun!

Just thought I would post the link to the CDC Technical diving page; Read the first paragraph... (I'm not passing judgement, but they do make a point!). http://www.cincinnatidiving.com/Training/technical.html

 

[Genesis]

is more difficult to quantify.

Everyone assumes that the instructor had actual knowledge that the deceased had falsified his claimed number of dives.

That is an assumption not backed up with facts. It may be true, but the facts on the table do not support that assertion. Until and unless they do, he is entitled to be treated as if he had no knowledge of the deception.

As for the financial incentives, if indeed there were only two paying divers on that trip then there is a lot more wrong with what's going on there than whether a student is taken on the trip or not. That's a 100nm run offshore, and owning a fairly decent-sized boat (45' Hatteras) I know what it takes to make that kind of a run. The fuel alone for that trip had to be close to $500. Add in the rest of the operational costs and you're talking real money - and real opportunity costs if they're taking away from other trips that are closer in and easier (and cheaper) to run.

All in all though, at the end of the day this doesn't even look much like a diving-related fatality. Oh yeah, he was in the water - but he wasn't under it. Unless he suffered a DCS hit from the first dive and didn't report it, how does this correlate with a diving (not swimming!) fatality?

 

[pufferfish]

MHK once bubbled...

~~~~~~~~
Now that being said, I do believe that the instructor and the boat operator [ to a lesser extent in the instant case] bears some responsibility. What many may not realize about this fatality is that economics played a vital role in what happened.
~~~~~~~~

I just read your excellent assessment and thought I was reading a synopsis of the novel "Into Thin Air" about the Mt. Everest disaster.

Almost identical factors at play. People with too much money and not enough experience attempting levels in sports they are not adequately prepared for. Guides or instructors being pressured to satisfy the client who has paid the money for the 'trophy'. And weather opportunity 'windows' where one is forced to attempt a dive or climb when really they should have remained in base camp or on the shore. One wonders like with the Everest guides where one's reputation is determined on how many clients you have successfully summited if the same phenomena is at work with dive instructors at this level. Instructor X has got all his students to 'summit' the Doria after only 18 months of training for example. Reminds me of an ad I saw recently for "get your black belt in karate for $1000 dollars in 18 months"

It sounds as though this obese gentleman was a sitting duck for a heart attack or possibly pulmonary edema of immersion. Yes he died on the surface and yes he bears much of the responsibilty for the death knowing how poor his health status was, but was he really able as a student to assess the difficulty of the Doria dive? Yes he didn't actually get under the water but his stress systems (psychological, cardiorespiratory, and adrenal) were all fully fired up on surface in preparation for the difficult Doria dive. His levels of circulating epinepherine, norepinepherine, and cortisol were likely already so high in anticipation of this dive that his greatest risk for a sudden cardiac death was from the minute he hit the water to when he actually might have reached the Doria. The swim just added the extra stress that tipped the balance towards having whatever 'event' he did have. Think of any dive where you have been slightly anxious on the way out as this was your first attempt at a new level of difficulty. The task loading in that first minute is very great and your 'flight or fight' responses may be near their 'redline'. Once you get into the dive though and settle often you can feel the systems lower their alert levels and the diver is able to relax. In this case I suspect his death was very much related to the anticipation of the Doria dive (fear and anxiety) and had he not been on the water with this maximal stress system activation he likely would not have died. Had the instuctor assessed this guy's fitness level and the difficulty of the anticipated dive properly with likely none of the above external pressures clouding his decision, this student would still be on the shore enjoying life. In this case instead of taking the diver on successive incrementaly more difficult dives say from Mt. Washington to Mt Baker as his next 'dive' he was taken recklessly on a dive straight to Mt. Everest. I would assign the instructor at least half the blame but I am no lawyer either.