Another BP/W question (education needed)

[kidspot]

Background - I am in the "information" gathering stage before my Basic Open Water Certification - actually I'm putting a group of about 6 teens/adults from Church to get certified together (most likely PADI) in 4 months (have to give the teens time to save their money etc..) I live on Maui, so warm climate and at most a 3mil exposure suit and I am primarily interested in simple recreational diving. In the meantime I have read all the PADI manuals up to DM level and am just "chomping at the bit" to get wet.

I am intrigued with the idea of the basic bp/w design because of it's simplicity and streamlined approach. I also find the basic DIR ideas very practical (I've watched the DIR III video and read as many articles online about DIR as I have been able to find - are the DIR 1 & 2 videos available online anywhere?) I am leaning toward the equipment layout DIR recommends as it seems the most versatile for future pursuits no matter where I go with diving. Most of the posts that I've read about gear are guys that dive dry suits and use a lot of weight so:

1) would an aluminum/abs bp be a better choice or will the weight/corrosion resistence of ss be wiser in warm water?

2) what kind of "lift" in a wing would I be looking at? I don't want to have a lot of excess that just "flaps in the wind" so to speak. (ie is 40lb lift too much?)

3) to aid in my training would it be a good idea to buy my own gear before getting certified so that I can learn one system well? Or should I just dive the gear they provide for now (jacket style BC)and decide later if a bp/w is for me? (I only want to buy gear once and be able to adapt it to wherever diving takes me)

4) what kind of problems do you see that I may face in PADI certification if I dive a rig that is different from their "norm" in my area. And what behaviors should I beware of so that I don't form bad habits which must be broken later on?

5) Any other suggestions you are willing to throw my way.

Thanks for all the great info each of you provides on the scubaboard

 

[salty]

1) Plate type depends on your overall rig weight. Someone with more experience with an approperiat set up will most likely be along shortly to awnser this(BTW i dive drysuit and doubles 100% of the time)

2) 27 to 30 pounds max lift

3)Get the BP and wing now. It looks like you have done enough research to know why you want a wing and why its better. FYI if you end up renting a reg set I would consider buying the long hose ($20-30) and asking that it be put on the rental set. Just an idea.

4)As long as you can explane away any questions as to why your using that gear you should have no problems. Being able to explan why you use the gear you do is what sets the rest of us apart from the DIR lemmings and wana-be's.

5)Get the DIR fundementals book and give it a read.

Good luck

 

[japan-diver]

I dive quite a bit in warm water with a thin suit, I use a SS backplate and a 30lb OxyCheq wing. With a thin suit the SS plate will allow little or no droppable weight- most recreational instuctors will not like this. Also many new divers like the idea of droppable weight than an aluminum BP is necessity. I would definately learn in a BP/W, the right gear makes diving so much more enjoyable. If you learn in a Jacket-style BC you will have to learn trim all over again when switching to a BP/Wing. Buy the wing 30lbs or less, SS plate- balanced rig, no droppable weight in warm water or Al-some droppable weight your choice.

If you are interested in the DIR style of diving I would do some research and try to find an instructor who doesn't have a problem with the BP/wing, long hose DIR style of diving- there are many of them out there.

 

[kidspot]

I appreciate the idea about asking the instructors their views first - I've been contacting different instructors because we will have a group with a very wide range of skills - 2 teens that are 14, and one adult who used to be a salvage diver (he wants to re-certify with us) and then myself and a couple others. Most operations here are geared toward certifying tourists, which is one reason for putting together a group - plus these will be the guys I'll probably be diving with in the future.

As far as I've been able to determine there are no diveshops on the island that are dealers for Halcyon, DiveRite or OMS (after searching for dealerships/authorized outlets etc..) which means mail order for most gear. (by the way what online sources are there for halcyon and oms? - I found diveriteexpress.com) leisurepro and others don't seem to carry them.

At this point I'm looking at the diverite venture wings (30lb lift) and seeing how abysmal.com has ss backplates for $60 I picked one up and can always get an al in the future if it's too much weight. - I also ordered the DIR fundamentals book - looking forward to reading it.

 

[divegeek]

I dive quite a bit in warm water with a thin suit, I use a SS backplate and a 30lb OxyCheq wing. With a thin suit the SS plate will allow little or no droppable weight- most recreational instuctors will not like this. Also many new divers like the idea of droppable weight than an aluminum BP is necessity. I would definately learn in a BP/W, the right gear makes diving so much more enjoyable. If you learn in a Jacket-style BC you will have to learn trim all over again when switching to a BP/Wing. Buy the wing 30lbs or less, SS plate- balanced rig, no droppable weight in warm water or Al-some droppable weight your choice.

If you are interested in the DIR style of diving I would do some research and try to find an instructor who doesn't have a problem with the BP/wing, long hose DIR style of diving- there are many of them out there.

I dive the same setup. I added two xs-scuba tank weight pockets on each side of the waist band. Some people will give you **** over diving a "technical rig" for tropical OW diving (they say it's overkill). I don't care, I did my research and this is what I choose to dive with. I just added a 7' long hose to my reg.

I would stay with the SS BP. The 30# wing should be fine. Make sure that it's a donut shape. Depending where you are, you may be able to rent a BP.

I'd go for it now and be done with it. I'm PADI certified (OW and AOW) and have been less then impressed with the training. Find a trainer that understands technical diving...maybe someone who also is part of GUE.

 

[kidspot]

Finding a non PADI trainer may not be a likely option - just don't know - although I spoke with a friend a few minutes ago who is a professional diver (he dives 5-8 times per week for work with regular 300+ ft dives) (currator at a local aquarium) and one of his employees is a PADI instructor - so that may provide a bit more flexibility in discussing some of this with them. (they are technical divers and dive using a lot of "old school" equipment - ie metal strap frames, etc..)

There are a few NAUI instructors and I believe a couple of SSI - but the companies I've spoken with only do cross-training for divers seeking PADI certification and offer PADI only as BOW. Plus there are a lot of options of future classes available if we start with PADI - thanks for the suggestion - I will keep it in mind

Also we just had 2 more youngsters sign on (11&13 yrs old - they already have done quite a bit of scuba under supervision, just not certified yet) and I know PADI will allow them to participate - unsure about other training agencies - the group just keeps getting bigger, we might need to split up into a couple of classes now.

Personally I just like to have as much information as possible under my belt before learning something new - so that I can watch out for pitfalls in my education and spend as much time as possible building good habits from the beginning.

 

[littlemermaid]

I admire your pre-class research...and smart thought process (IMHO) as far as wanting to learn proper habits from the start. Certainly I wish I had done the same since it is always harder to unlearn a bad habit : ) One place you might be able to contact for helpful information is Fifth Dimension in Seattle, since they actually teach their O/W students proper trim, neutral buoyancy (no skills on knees), excellent gas management, long hose and necklace etc, etc. One of their staff or instructors might be a good resource. They also have an online store where you can buy equipment if you can't find it locally...www.fifthd.com

Best wishes for a wonderful class!
Echo

 

[salty]

Island Divers Hawaii
1849 Kaioo Dr.
Honolulu, HI 96815
USA
808-947-6583
imfo@islanddivershawaii.com


I got this off the Halcyon web site they are Halcyon retailers. Contacting them would be your best bet, I know Its a diffrent island but its the closest thing to you.

 

[Munin]

Take a look at http://divetekadventures.com/ They're the only DIR shop in Hawaii that I know of. I've never been there but I've heard good things about them.

 

[tomcat]

1. i dive in warm waters. everyone whom i know who has a ss plate either does not use it or is trying to sell it. which means that everyone is diving with an aluminium bp. more ditchable weight is better than less. don't worry about corrosion. i haven't seen any on plates that are >5 years old.

2. for warm water diving on a single tank, <30# is sufficient. some people even go with 18#. if you need more than that, you are probably overweighted. on twins, most people here use a 45# wing.

3. + 4. if you intend to dive DIR style (i.e. with long hose) then you may have quite a bit of a problem during OW in a PADI/NAUI/SSI system unless the instructor is familiar with DIR. if you intend to just use the bp/harness as a bc not as part of a holistic diving system, then there shouldn't be problem (i wonder where you will clip your octopus though). having said that, equipment is a hefty investment. if you decide that you don't like diving, that's a lot of money that can be put to better use. PADI/SSI/NAUI, etc., have pretty good programs that have evolved over a long time. i don't think there are "bad behaviours" to watch out for per se. more of a "is there a better way to do this" and "am i learning enough to dive safely" concern. these questions depend on the quality of instruction.

5. in my opinion, PADI/NAUI/SSI have very good procedures for handling problems and provide you with fewer tools for preventing those problems. for example, these agencies recommend that you check your air often. DIR will push you towards being aware of the exact rate of consumption and knowing when you have to turn back without even having to think about it. these agencies teach you how to make it to the surface on your own if you ever run out of air and there is nobody around. DIR does not allow for the option of ever being alone.

reading about this stuff is a great start. taking the courses will let you internalise and actually practice the mindset.