AOW Disappointment

[Steve R]

The fact still remains, I am a current PADI instructor, Walter is not, nor are you. Who, then is better qualified to speak on what PADIs current philosophy is on training? I think I and others have adequetly pointed out that PADI has little to do with the dissapointment felt by the OP. The dive center is the problem, and should not be visited again. Beyond that you can gripe all you want about PADI. I simply am not going to allow misinformation to be spread.

Actually, Walter was too smart to ever have become a Padi Instructor, I was not, and became one. Of course I understand what he has been saying now for quite some time. Walter recognized the destinct difference between Padi's training philosophy and that of some other agencies.

I don't think you yet get that difference.

I think what burns you the most is we point out Padi's nonsense (and maybe your misinformation as well?) right in their face, as a Padi Instructors or not. It's that obvious to anyone with a clue.

The facts are, my friend, I have a load of personal experience and written documentation in dealing with Padi QA folks, and the facts are they don't give a damn, about you, me or the students, and are all too willing to sweep under the carpet, most any measure of their own nonsense, or that of their instructors.

It is also a fact that they are extremely well adept at what they do, which is marketing bullcrap to the masses.

Sad to say, but the only good Padi rec instructors actually end up either leaving (Mike Ferrara for example) or they end up teaching a course that is nothing like a Padi course whatsoever.

For never having been a Padi Instructor, Walter is damn up on his knowledge I'll tell ya. As a Padi Instructor myself, I find everything he's said about Padi's system extremely accurate. Ever wonder why JV?

I guess you just enjoy being played like a fiddle. Works for me.

regards

 

[Steve R]

Everything I have posted is factual based on my training an experience as a PADI Instructor and the instructional material provided to me by PADI. What is your expertise on PADIs courses, exactly?

As Walter has already mentioned, you have been misinformed. Go to Padi's own site and see what they clearly have written. You can't even get past that much, let alone anything else we're trying to tell you, Mr current Padi Instructor.

 

[Steve R]

I believe the worst thing I've ever seen Padi do is allow their current standards to stay as they still are after many 'deep dive' deaths in the AOW course, after noting themselves in their own rag that Instructors should use more discretion whilst doing this particular adventure dive of the AOW course.

Note for a moment that mentioning this in their rag does nothing to the standards that the instructor is judged by, so it's bascially moot.

So what we have is an admission that this particular dive, save all others in thier program is the biggest student killer they have.

So we come to a local death or two in this area ourselves, and it's the typical nonsense and arse covering.

I write padi QA and tell them they really should start fixing their nonsense and get serious. There's no way a diver with 8 dives should be sitting at 105' in 40 degree water and 30' vis....he's simply not prepared in any way shape or form, no way, no how.

We all know it, it's obvious.

The fact we don't kill all that many students really isn't a reason to continue the nonsense,..so I thought anyway.

Guess I thought wrong as they told me.

I questioned them yet again, and was told all the cases I detailed were over and done with, and that was that. Case closed, no more discussion.

I suggested instead of making blerbs in their rag, which are not enforceable standards (not that they'd enforce them anyway), that if they really wanted to stem the needless deaths on Padi AOW courses as their rag suggests, that they may want to consider at least ensuring that the Instructor in charge of the dive actually have more than 1-2 deep dives more than the student by tidying up the standards. I provided a few sensible ideas of my own, but again, silence.

Of course to you JV, that's the instructors or shops fault, right? Couldn't be Padi's, right?

I really can't go a week in instruction season without seeing a serious judgmental error which truly endangers the student, who themselves are relying on the instructor to know better. It's clearly evident that a huge majority of these padi pro's simply do not have what it takes to be safe. They themselves simply do not know any better because they were never taught.

I know, I've been through the padi IE, a joke mind you, and I know what the current skill set is for your average padi instructor. I couldn't believe what constituted a passing grade. I stood there watching in disgust.

It's horrible, and will no doubt be the cause of many student deaths to come. Very, very sad.

But hey, let's revist this again when the killing season starts up in a few more weeks.

til then bud.


BTW: I care because people die paying these idiots to play russian roulette with thier lives. Everyone makes mistakes, but this beyond stupid.

 

[jviehe]

Well, if you are a PADI instructor then I have to point out that you are violating standards by disparaging PADI. I can only hope that new divers dont read this and lump your incivility with us professionals.

 

[Walter]

Well, if you are a PADI instructor then I have to point out that you are violating standards by disparaging PADI. I can only hope that new divers dont read this and lump your incivility with us professionals.

Sounds like an excellent standard to violate. Blinders never make things better.

 

[loosebits]

Well, if you are a PADI instructor then I have to point out that you are violating standards by disparaging PADI. I can only hope that new divers dont read this and lump your incivility with us professionals.

I cannot believe you just said that. Funny thing is I'm sure that's the one standard they actually enforce.

[SIZE=-1]"The first rule about PADI Is you don't talk about PADI."[/SIZE]

 

[diverdowndh]

Along these lines I have a couple of questions. I am only OW certified but have over 140 dives. I'm currently enrolled in the AOW, so I can proceed with Rescue and the DM. I've never ceased to be amazed at showing up on a boat, how many newbies on the boat and the first dive is somewhere b/t 100 and 80 feet. Personally, I don't care if the vis is Caribbean stds, or the water temp is around 80 degrees (although I TOTALLY agree with the minimal vis and temp statements!), I am very nervous about some of these divers. I have been fortunate to not have seen anything more than minor incidents/accidents, no deaths for sure but I KNOW there have been more than several close calls. I've asked around about PADI standards, the one that comes to mind is the 60foot supposed limit for an OW diver. I laugh at that, because I always take my logbook on my vacations, and only twice in my long diving experience have I ever, and I said ever, been asked by a dive outfit to look at my log for my experience. To me, that is a thing PADI teaches, but using the word enforced doesn't even come close. I am very surprised there are not more accidents by students that are not ready but willing to follow the DM of the boat right into the very deep.
While I somewhat agree about being and Instructor and bashing PADI, I agree that if something is wrong, say something! Especially if you are a DM or Instructor!
So, to the questions.... why do more outfits not ask to review dive logs? Why don't supposed PADI DM's even ask obvious newbies or newly certified OW divers if they're comfortable going deep? I know, I'll get the retorts about "you should dive your own limits" or "it is YOUR responsibility" but let's face it, there is definitive peer pressure on a boat - your first time, it is really exciting, all the equipment, don't want to disappoint the other divers on the boat, maybe nervous and simply not thinking clearly enough to ask or question the depth of the dive.... I've seen some pretty questionable divers get in the water and flail around with their equipment (I counseled one on my very recent trip to Belize - him and his wife needed to calm down, and I gave them some tips about their bouyancy and the workings of their brand new computers). They agreed that they were nervous about some of the dives, but were too nervous and caught up in the moment to say anything on the boat.
I didn't want to rant too much but an Instructor who questions something wrong is a good thing to me! Nothing is perfect and I'm not bashing PADI, I have had a GREAT experience with my diving and PADI is directly responsible for most of it. I would guess that some of these Instructors with "incivility" have had to deal with some form of accidents that would've/could've/should've been prevented by different standards...
My 2 cents, please don't kick me off the forum <grin>!

 

[loosebits]

I think most experienced DM's (and I'm betting down there, you get experience real quick doing 10 - 20 dives a week) can easily spot the new & uncomfortable divers from all the tell-tales such as difficulty setting up their gear, fidgeting, etc and make sure to keep a closer eye on them. Of course if it's six people on the boat that need extra attention then we may have a problem.

I think the DM's taking vacation divers out on reef tours are doing an incredible job compensating for all the instructors that are doing just enough to meet PADI's standards. The agencies put a lot of responsibility on these DM's and when an accident happens, it always seems to be the operator that the lawyers look to first when the root of the problem isn't the fact that the safety net of the DM system failed but that the safety net seems to be so frequently needed.

 

[jviehe]

I cannot believe you just said that. Funny thing is I'm sure that's the one standard they actually enforce.

[SIZE=-1]"The first rule about PADI Is you don't talk about PADI."[/SIZE]

Seems like a sensible business rule. Dont talk bad about your company. If Steve R doesnt like it, he should not be a PADI Professional.

 

[loosebits]

Is PADI your employer? Who's paying who here? How is it in the interest of safety that PADI instructors must first give up their livelyhoods before they can speak out against what they feel are unsafe business practices?