AOW Disappointment

[jviehe]

Along these lines I have a couple of questions. I am only OW certified but have over 140 dives. I'm currently enrolled in the AOW, so I can proceed with Rescue and the DM. I've never ceased to be amazed at showing up on a boat, how many newbies on the boat and the first dive is somewhere b/t 100 and 80 feet. Personally, I don't care if the vis is Caribbean stds, or the water temp is around 80 degrees (although I TOTALLY agree with the minimal vis and temp statements!), I am very nervous about some of these divers. I have been fortunate to not have seen anything more than minor incidents/accidents, no deaths for sure but I KNOW there have been more than several close calls. I've asked around about PADI standards, the one that comes to mind is the 60foot supposed limit for an OW diver. I laugh at that, because I always take my logbook on my vacations, and only twice in my long diving experience have I ever, and I said ever, been asked by a dive outfit to look at my log for my experience. To me, that is a thing PADI teaches, but using the word enforced doesn't even come close. I am very surprised there are not more accidents by students that are not ready but willing to follow the DM of the boat right into the very deep.
While I somewhat agree about being and Instructor and bashing PADI, I agree that if something is wrong, say something! Especially if you are a DM or Instructor!
So, to the questions.... why do more outfits not ask to review dive logs? Why don't supposed PADI DM's even ask obvious newbies or newly certified OW divers if they're comfortable going deep? I know, I'll get the retorts about "you should dive your own limits" or "it is YOUR responsibility" but let's face it, there is definitive peer pressure on a boat - your first time, it is really exciting, all the equipment, don't want to disappoint the other divers on the boat, maybe nervous and simply not thinking clearly enough to ask or question the depth of the dive.... I've seen some pretty questionable divers get in the water and flail around with their equipment (I counseled one on my very recent trip to Belize - him and his wife needed to calm down, and I gave them some tips about their bouyancy and the workings of their brand new computers). They agreed that they were nervous about some of the dives, but were too nervous and caught up in the moment to say anything on the boat.
I didn't want to rant too much but an Instructor who questions something wrong is a good thing to me! Nothing is perfect and I'm not bashing PADI, I have had a GREAT experience with my diving and PADI is directly responsible for most of it. I would guess that some of these Instructors with "incivility" have had to deal with some form of accidents that would've/could've/should've been prevented by different standards...
My 2 cents, please don't kick me off the forum <grin>!

There is no law that requires maximum depth limits. PADI only reccomends that new divers stay shallower than 60ft untill they gain experience. How the industry chooses to enforce this is up to the industry. PADI does not run dive boats. The only thing they can control is their professionals and dive centers running courses according to standards. This means, for example, not taking 10-11 year olds below 40ft. If a charter boat takes them, however, there is nothing PADI can do. PADI provides training and guidance. They do not plan your dive for you or dive your plan for you. You are ultimately responsible for how you apply your training. This goes for all agencys.

As for whether its good for members to point out problems with the agency, I agree, but it has to be done in the proper way, which is not publicly. This is how PADI runs their business, and they do not force people to become their instructors. If you choose to become one then you have to follow the rules.

 

[jviehe]

Is PADI your employer? Who's paying who here? How is it in the interest of safety that PADI instructors must first give up their livelyhoods before they can speak out against what they feel are unsafe business practices?

I signed a contract with PADI to adhere to their rules in order to become a certified professional. Its not about money. Poitn is, no one forced anyone to become an instructor. I knew going in the rules I would have to adhere to. Also, PADI does not prohibit you from making suggestions or complaints about their practices to them. That is the proper forum, not public domain.

Membership Agreement

10. I will not discredit PADI or its corporate affiliates or associated companies, nor cause
any action that will create a liability to them. PADI will have the sole right to determine
whether any of my actions violate the intentions of this paragraph.

And from General Standards

As a PADI Member, you must:

5. Not wrongfully disparage the PADI organization, PADI Members or any
other dive industry professionals.

 

[Walter]

There is no law that requires maximum depth limits. PADI only reccomends that new divers stay shallower than 60ft untill they gain experience. How the industry chooses to enforce this is up to the industry. PADI does not run dive boats. The only thing they can control is their professionals and dive centers running courses according to standards. This means, for example, not taking 10-11 year olds below 40ft. If a charter boat takes them, however, there is nothing PADI can do. PADI provides training and guidance. They do not plan your dive for you or dive your plan for you. You are ultimately responsible for how you apply your training. This goes for all agencys.

We don't agree often, so I feel somewhat compelled to mention it when we do. This is 100% correct.

 

[loosebits]

Seems like a sensible business rule. Dont talk bad about your company.

Its not about money.

The only way I can explain the first statement is to negate the second.

Regardless, you seem to rule out any way for anyone to criticize PADI standards. Earlier you told the non-PADI professionals to stop criticizing PADI standards as they aren't PADI professionals and then you point out to PADI professionals that criticizing PADI is a violation of standards. You know, perhaps you think as I do that PADI standards are a joke and PADI is nothing more than a card printer but you simply can't say it due to PADI standards.

I just find this amusing.

 

[Walter]

Looking at the actually wording, there's been no standards violation.

As a PADI Member, you must:

5. Not wrongfully disparage the PADI organization, PADI Members or any
other dive industry professionals.

 

[jviehe]

The only way I can explain the first statement is to negate the second.

Regardless, you seem to rule out any way for anyone to criticize PADI standards. Earlier you told the non-PADI professionals to stop criticizing PADI standards as they aren't PADI professionals and then you point out to PADI professionals that criticizing PADI is a violation of standards. You know, perhaps you think as I do that PADI standards are a joke and PADI is nothing more than a card printer but you simply can't say it due to PADI standards.

I just find this amusing.

I never said to stop criticizing PADI to non padi pros. Just not to post incorrect facts. I have no problem with someone expressing an opinion. If they are going to use wrong information to back up that opinion, then I will correct it. I happen to agree with PADIs philosophy on training, or I would not be a PADI pro. Even were I to disagree with something, Im far from a dive education expert.

 

[jviehe]

Looking at the actually wording, there's been no standards violation.

Thats up to PADI to decide. Its pretty obvious that they would disagree with the tone being expressed in this thread.

 

[Walter]

I don't trust PADI to decide anything. There was a time I thought they were merely misguided, but then they subpoenaed me. I showed up with the required documents at the appointed time and place. PADI did not show up. They then tried to have me held in contempt of court. Don't turn your back on them. They aren't misguided, they know exactly what they are doing.

 

[Divedoggie]

Following this has been interesting.

Just a couple of points.

Many people who are overly pro PADI, and many people who are anti-PADI, are both guilty of generalization. So, here's another generalization. The agency doesn't serve everyone, and it doesn't neglect everyone.

One of my businesses is a restaurant. The health inspector comes by every few months and checks things out to make sure we are complying with standards. There are required minimum standards.

Knowing the restaurant business, all I can say is, I wouldn't want to eat at a restaurant that will only minimally meet standards. The finest restaurants, go well beyond. Other greasy spoons, scrape by. You the consumer, get to choose where to dine, because, in the end, they all serve food.

Do you believe in big government or small government? Is your market determined by the consumer or by the government and the standard setter?
Do you strive for excellence as an instructor, or wallow in mediocrity?

Is an MBA educated at Harvard, better at business than the MBA educated at Ohio State?
Maybe, but probably not. The Harvard MBA may be presented with more opportunities. It ultimately depends on experience, using multiple sources for information, the quality of the teachers, the effort put forth by the students, and continued education.

In diving, we are given standards which must be met. These are our base guidelines.
It is sad to see that instructors and dive centers use only this foundation and call it a building.

My mentors, used that foundation, and then built apon it. I choose to take it further. Our shop is in Colorado. What else are we going to do related to diving, once class is dismissed. No one is in a hurry to get out of the water.

There are 10 instructors at our dive store. They teach because they are passionate about diving. Every instructor adds her or his insight into every required skill.

Buoyancy control is paramount. There is appropriate space in the CW dives and in the OW dives to work extensively on buoyancy control, physical attitude in the water, and finning techniques.

At the end of each CW session, the PADI cue cards call for playtime, and skill work.

My practice is to stay with my students for over an hour after the 2nd and 4th CW skill sets, and work on buoyancy. They are required to make multiple laps maintaining a 5 foot depth. Each lap has to be completed with a different finning technique from the previous lap. They are required to make multiple ascents from the deep end, and perform safety stops in a horizontal position for 3 minutes, at 5 feet.

They make multiple descents, and have to use the power inflator to stop and hover horizontally 1 foot off the bottom. No touching.

Our OW site is 65 feet deep. We have a suspended platform at 18 feet. All of our skills are done while hovering, and skills such as UW navigation are done without reference to the bottom. The max depth on the final dive is 40 feet. The 65 foot deep bottom cannot be seen, so the students must rely on gauges, landmarks, awareness of pressure, etc to maintain depth.

We dive at altitude (6000 ft) which requires other special considerations and conservatism. Slow controlled ascents with safety stops for example.

PADI gave me my training. They didn't fail me. I choose to know more and to do more, not to sit and criticize.

 

[jviehe]

I don't trust PADI to decide anything. There was a time I thought they were merely misguided, but then they subpoenaed me. I showed up with the required documents at the appointed time and place. PADI did not show up. They then tried to have me held in contempt of court. Don't turn your back on them. They aren't misguided, they know exactly what they are doing.

Well, then you are right to not be a PADI instructor. I have no problem with you expressing your opinion. However, you made factual claims about PADI training which are not consistent with what I know from actually BEING a PADI instructor. This is what I take issue with.