AOW right after OWD

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... you do realize that there are more agencies in the world than PADI, and that they all have different standards. The one thing that's consistent between them is that an AOW card (or equivalent by whatever name that agency uses) is recognized by most dive ops as an indication that the holder is "qualified" to do deeper dives.

Firstly, I thought we were discussing PADI (this thread). The context of whether OW-AOW is appropriate becomes very different when other agencies, with other syllabus and other requirements...and a different end-result are to be considered.

How ludicrous does it sound to say that someone shouldn't do a PADI OW to AOW, because the SSI AOW had X requirements??

Second, where courses are direct equivalents, can you reference an agency standard that links AOW (or equiv) to a specific qualification? Genuine question, because I've not encountered one that does...

ANDI don't have an AOW equiv.
BSAC Advanced Diver is far from equiv, and their 'Sports Diver' follows a very different format altogether.
SSI 'Advanced Adventurer' doesn't 'qualify' - although SSI do permit 'Deep Diver' specialty without any prerequisite after OW.
 
I wasn't aware this discussion was exclusive to PADI ... otherwise I wouldn't have participated, since I'm not a PADI instructor.

The NAUI "Advanced Scuba Diver" course is virtually identical to PADI's "Advanced Open Water" ... except that it requires six dives rather than five. Three of those dives are required to be deep, navigation and limited visibility. NAUI does, however, allow me to beef up that class considerably (which is why I chose NAUI).

The YMCA "Advanced Open Water" program I took in 2001 is virtually identical to PADI's "Advanced Open Water" ... although the YMCA offered a "Silver Advanced" program that was more akin to NAUI's Master Diver. I do not know what has changed since the YMCA program converted over to SEI ... perhaps Jim Lapenta can shed more light on that.

We are using the term "qualifications" to connote different things. In a strict sense, you are correct. However, trying to get on a dive boat in many parts of the world without an AOW or equivalent card will result in your being told that you're not "qualified" for the dives they'll be doing ... regardless of your diving experience.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I agree. Your positoin is clearly from the position that a well trained ow can directly continue to AOW. I just dont see that many OWs that have the OW skills down even after AOW. As i have said before There is something inherantly wrong with finishing you dm requirements at total dive 40 and are told when your log hits 60 some see me and i will order your card. I am sure that you , like many others here on SB are quality instructors. There are a significant amount of those out there that are not. I personally do not believe they are the exception like we would all like to believbe.

Your objections to a direct OW - AOW transition seem to be rooted in an expectation of sub-standard OW certification. Deferring commencement of AOW isn't the solution to that problem.


---------- Post added May 16th, 2013 at 11:39 PM ----------

I know my lok book is full of entries like this.

Oh, yes, you do, Bob. Here's an entry from my 2005 logbook:

LOGBOOK.jpg
 
I agree. Your positoin is clearly from the position that a well trained ow can directly continue to AOW. I just dont see that many OWs that have the OW skills down even after AOW.

I agree with you. In a perfect world, every OW should have sufficient competency to progress to AOW. In that circumstance, AOW becomes a progressive and developmental experience.

We don't live in a perfect world - so many OW divers emerge from training with a skill-set significantly below the necessary prerequisite for progressive training at AOW. At best, AOW becomes a remedial experience. At worst, it becomes an extension of earlier sub-standard training and offers neither remedial nor progressive skill benefits.

In itself, the issue of sub-standard OW-AOW progression is not critical. Most divers self-correct over time - if they are actively involved with the hobby and engage with the wider diving community. Those who dive infrequently and who don't interact with the wider diving community are unlikely to progress their skill-set at all... and are more likely to experience a significant deterioration from their initial post-training competency.

However, the linking of AOW qualification to a progression in depth and activity limits is critical. If the OW-AOW process is flawed (in reality, if not theory), then the system is effectively recommending limits beyond the capabilities provided by the training. I've drawn attention to the fact that PADI don't formally link increased limits to the AOW course. However, the diving community/industry do... and that reality should be addressed by the scuba training agencies.

Either; training has to be improved to meet the desired outcome limitations, or the outcome limitations have to be categorically re-defined to match the actual product of training.

In respect of the current reality of OW and AOW training...and the logic behind an immediate/swift progression between those two levels - we can identify that training outcomes do not match scuba industry practices, especially in regards to depth limitations (AOW dive to 30m/100ft). AOW should be disassociated from depth limits altogether - as this prevents the dangerous situation where divers are 'approved' (even encouraged?) to dive beyond their formal skill-set, breadth of experience and level of comfort.

We recognize that 'in reality' the outcome product of OW training is generally of a standard below the 'on paper' expectations. With respect to continuance onto AOW training, is it more logical to encourage below-par divers into timely further educations.... or does it make more sense to deny them that training and defer it until their skills have somehow (without further formal educational input) improved themselves?

To me, that sounds a bit Spartan. Release them from OW training and throw them to the wolves. Those that survive long enough to develop skills on their own can be re-admitted into the training structure. ("survive" = maintain an active interest in scuba diving, not "you're gonna die", by the way...)
 
The first thing i usually have to deal with in new OW's is buoyancy. Getting then out of the feet down over weighted condition that they graduated with in OW into something a little more in line with good trim. It seams to do wonders with them. And of course the questions "Why didn't they teach us this in OW?" All i can say is that they would if they had time or was one on one. After a couple of dives they are pretty well horizontal. Lots of tank adjusting on a platform and lots of talk about difference between buoyancy and trim. Once i get them through that then its What do you want to do. And they take over their learning /relearning/ getting proficient/ becoming mentally comfortable now that they are physically comfortable. I don’t broach frog kicks unless they ask however I make sure they see me to spark the interest. About the time they are feeling pretty comfortable they ask about shooting a bouy and I let them and then they usually decide that is something for another day. Each and every success and failure I ask them to log it and work on it the next dive. They more or less learn controlled ascent and decent on their own they no longer bounce between the surface and bottom. I figure at that point they are ready to take on more difficult less forgiving environments. There is just too much to be learned or practiced in thta time between ow and aow unless you are lucky and have that magic instructor or in a one on one.


I agree with you. In a perfect world, every OW should have sufficient competency to progress to AOW. In that circumstance, AOW becomes a progressive and developmental experience.

We don't live in a perfect world - so many OW divers emerge from training with a skill-set significantly below the necessary prerequisite for progressive training at AOW. At best, AOW becomes a remedial experience. At worst, it becomes an extension of earlier sub-standard training and offers neither remedial nor progressive skill benefits.

In itself, the issue of sub-standard OW-AOW progression is not critical. Most divers self-correct over time - if they are actively involved with the hobby and engage with the wider diving community. Those who dive infrequently and who don't interact with the wider diving community are unlikely to progress their skill-set at all... and are more likely to experience a significant deterioration from their initial post-training competency.

However, the linking of AOW qualification to a progression in depth and activity limits is critical. If the OW-AOW process is flawed (in reality, if not theory), then the system is effectively recommending limits beyond the capabilities provided by the training. I've drawn attention to the fact that PADI don't formally link increased limits to the AOW course. However, the diving community/industry do... and that reality should be addressed by the scuba training agencies.

Either; training has to be improved to meet the desired outcome limitations, or the outcome limitations have to be categorically re-defined to match the actual product of training.

In respect of the current reality of OW and AOW training...and the logic behind an immediate/swift progression between those two levels - we can identify that training outcomes do not match scuba industry practices, especially in regards to depth limitations (AOW dive to 30m/100ft). AOW should be disassociated from depth limits altogether - as this prevents the dangerous situation where divers are 'approved' (even encouraged?) to dive beyond their formal skill-set, breadth of experience and level of comfort.

We recognize that 'in reality' the outcome product of OW training is generally of a standard below the 'on paper' expectations. With respect to continuance onto AOW training, is it more logical to encourage below-par divers into timely further educations.... or does it make more sense to deny them that training and defer it until their skills have somehow (without further formal educational input) improved themselves?

To me, that sounds a bit Spartan. Release them from OW training and throw them to the wolves. Those that survive long enough to develop skills on their own can be re-admitted into the training structure. ("survive" = maintain an active interest in scuba diving, not "you're gonna die", by the way...)
 
I wasn't aware this discussion was exclusive to PADI ... otherwise I wouldn't have participated, since I'm not a PADI instructor.

The NAUI "Advanced Scuba Diver" course is virtually identical to PADI's "Advanced Open Water" ... except that it requires six dives rather than five. Three of those dives are required to be deep, navigation and limited visibility. NAUI does, however, allow me to beef up that class considerably (which is why I chose NAUI).

The YMCA "Advanced Open Water" program I took in 2001 is virtually identical to PADI's "Advanced Open Water" ... although the YMCA offered a "Silver Advanced" program that was more akin to NAUI's Master Diver. I do not know what has changed since the YMCA program converted over to SEI ... perhaps Jim Lapenta can shed more light on that.

We are using the term "qualifications" to connote different things. In a strict sense, you are correct. However, trying to get on a dive boat in many parts of the world without an AOW or equivalent card will result in your being told that you're not "qualified" for the dives they'll be doing ... regardless of your diving experience.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)


Original Post


AOW right after OWD
I've seen this so many times now that I have to ask... New divers, newly certified OWD, finish their OWD cert and head right into the AOW course, sometimes without even doing a single dive on their own in between.

What's the idea behind doing this? I'm not PADI trained and it seems to be mostly (only?) PADI divers who do this. I've always been under the impression that AOW makes sense only after gaining some real-world diving experience (at least that's what I remember from the SSI system), but this common immediate OWD/AOW combo contradicts this.

Not trying to stir up anything, I'm genuinely curious about what the reasoning is. Do they feel that their OWD training was inadequate and they hope to fill the gaps through AOW? Not enough pool time in OWD and they want more before they start diving on their own? Or is it the depth limitation of the PADI OWD level (what is it, 60 ft?) that they think is not enough for what they want to dive? If that's what it is, what does the AOW teach them that OWD didn't, that would let them go beyond the OWD depth limit?
 
Hi,

I completed my open water dive and will complete my advance. My instruction recommended that I study the manual and gather some experience before completing my advance as I won't gain much from doing it right now. I agree with him and wish to gain experience before heading to the next stage.

Does anyone have a link where I can download or view the AOW manual please allowing me to get properly ready. I am asking because where I live, it will take a lot of time before I receive the book :(

Much help and assistance would be appreciated.

Thank you
 
I'm not sure they do an electronic version; the best thing to do is buy the book from the dive school or buy one off Fleabay. Opinion differs on how soon you should do the AOW after OW but personally I see no point in delaying it. I did mine immediately after OW and found I benefited from more time with an instructor on my early dives. I do not see any harm in doing a few dives in between, however, it seems a waste of time when people do the AOW after 100 dives, by which time most of the course content will have been picked up through experience.
 
AOW after OW. Back when I learned, I did AOW immediately after OW, but did it with different instructor, different store. Being an instructor now, I beleive doing AOW at any time is worthwhile, though you defineately get out of it what "an" instructor chooses to put into it. It is no different than OW classes. Too many classes are "rushed" just to issued a C card and move on to the next. My OW classes consist of "at least" 12hgrs classroom and 12hrs pool before spending an entire weekend at a quarry. AOW should be "at least" an entire weekend. ALL dives should be worthwhile and the skills learned should be thorough. Your instructor and what he/she allows you to get away with means EVERYTHING. (IE: Swimming 20 kickcycles with a compass and a reciprical in clear water when you can see your return target does not teach you about using a compass).
 
Does anyone have a link where I can download or view the AOW manual please allowing me to get properly ready. I am asking because where I live, it will take a lot of time before I receive the book :(

Much help and assistance would be appreciated.

Thank you

Your side-profile says you're in Bangkok. There's probably a few thousand recently certified backpackers every month trying to 'get rid' of their manuals for a couple of Chang's. I think I remember seeing PADI manuals in the second-hand bookshops, which can be found in the backpacker areas of Bangkok.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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