AOW right after OWD

[supergaijin]

What skills?

Deep Adventure Dive Performance Requirements
1. Descend using a line, wall or sloping bottom. Existing skill - taught on Open Water

Night Adventure Dive Performance Requirements
1. Descend using a reference line or sloping bottom. Existing skill - taught on Open Water

Navigation Adventure Dive Performance Requirements
1. Maintain neutral buoyancy. Existing skill - taught on Open Water

Not trying to pick bones... ok maybe just a small one If the initial controlled descent is a 'skill', how can one assess their performance beforehand?

Personally I try not to start AOW before I have seen the diver in the water for at least one dive. Here in the Maldives we have the 'orientation dive' requirement which covers this. Since I've started here in Laamu Atoll running my own operation I have not needed to decline a diver from beginning AOW. IME however there will come a day...

 

[t4e]

It is hard to get the time, practice and expertise when you are limited by the skills taught in the OW class

the OW teaches you all the basic skills you need to dive, not limited at all, you just have to get out there and practice, it all depends on the individual too, even though the curriculum is the same not everyone comes out school with the same level of knowledge

personally i did not feel my OW course was limited at all but i didn't take a PADI crash course, my certification lets me go to 130FT after at least 20 dives - 10 hours of bottom time
it took a few dives for me to gain confidence in the skills i learned but that is just how it always is when coming out of school
i am by no means an expert, there's always more to learn and practice but i would definitely not say the OW course skills are limited

i fail to see how the AWO and just 4 more supervised dives will give anyone the confidence to get out and practice them, that only reminds of those people that are deep in their books even while waiting to get in the exam room lol
if you dodn't know your material by the night before cramming more stuff in to the last minute before the exam ain't going to help you

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In SEA the main reason why people continue straight in to AOW is $$$. Some backpackers in Koh Tao for example offer free accomodation while under training. AOW-Rescue-DM can seem like a good option to 'save' money while 'doing Thailand'. Elsewhere AOW courses are often advertised for only a few dollars more than the cost of fun dives- again price is the key for many people. IME working in these areas, there is very little in the way of quality training... however there is always the 1%.

... and that's how you end up with so many people holding a DM card who can't even clear a mask comfortably, or read a gauge without first settling to the bottom on their knees ... and God help them if they should ever have to plan a dive without supervision ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added April 30th, 2013 at 05:32 AM ----------

Not trying to pick bones... ok maybe just a small one If the initial controlled descent is a 'skill', how can one assess their performance beforehand?

Personally I try not to start AOW before I have seen the diver in the water for at least one dive. Here in the Maldives we have the 'orientation dive' requirement which covers this. Since I've started here in Laamu Atoll running my own operation I have not needed to decline a diver from beginning AOW. IME however there will come a day...

When I as in the Maldives ... of the 50-60 or so "divers" who came raining down on top of us while at the manta cleaning station, there may have been one or two who managed to stop their descent without crashing into the bottom. Way more than half spent their entire time crawling on the bottom, and the few who attempted to get off the bottom were immediately intercepted by dive guides who would grab them by the hand and escort them to a coral head ... insisting that they hold onto it. I've never seen anything like it in my life ... and hope to never see it again ... but it indicated to me that lack of even basic buoyancy control wasn't an exception in that part of the world ... it was the expectation.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[uncfnp]

the OW teaches you all the basic skills you need to dive, not limited at all, you just have to get out there and practice, it all depends on the individual too, even though the curriculum is the same not everyone comes out school with the same level of knowledge

personally i did not feel my OW course was limited at all but i didn't take a PADI crash course, my certification lets me go to 130FT after at least 20 dives - 10 hours of bottom time
it took a few dives for me to gain confidence in the skills i learned but that is just how it always is when coming out of school
i am by no means an expert, there's always more to learn and practice but i would definitely not say the OW course skills are limited

i fail to see how the AWO and just 4 more supervised dives will give anyone the confidence to get out and practice them, that only reminds of those people that are deep in their books even while waiting to get in the exam room lol
if you dodn't know your material by the night before cramming more stuff in to the last minute before the exam ain't going to help you

I am not an instructor and never plan to be so I don't have a broad experience and can only speak from a personal experience.

I feel that my OW course was very good, only us two with the instructor, and covered the course work very well. The problem with my course, as I've already posted, is that the open water dives were quarry dives that really did not prepare me for ocean dives. Doing our first ocean dives on our own after only doing quarry dives was too much task loading. That's one reason we elected to do AOW while on vacation, rather than at home with more quarry dives.

So looking back, it was really just wanting more instruction/supervised experience in the "real world" of ocean dives. (my apologies to lake divers-that is a completely different experience from the small quarries to which I have access). I guess if my OW had included ocean and boat dives, I might feel much differently. And maybe the problem was just me and no one else has any problem going from quarry to ocean.

 

[dfx]

A competent diver that can not go beyond 60 feet, has never dove night or wreck, most likely has never deployed a surface safety sausage. He may indeed be competent but his dive universe will be very small, unless he goes beyond his teaching...

It is hard to get the time, practice and expertise when you are limited by the skills taught in the OW class

Thats my point, unless its a very tightly controlled environment, those first few dives after OW are going to require the OW diver to dive beyond his set of skills.

Not sure what you're saying here. There's lots and lots and lots of diving that can be done within those limits and only using the skills taught in OWD.

Wreck penetration is advanced, caves is advanced, ice is advanced...

We're talking advanced open water here. All these aren't open water.

The problem with my course, as I've already posted, is that the open water dives were quarry dives that really did not prepare me for ocean dives. Doing our first ocean dives on our own after only doing quarry dives was too much task loading. That's one reason we elected to do AOW while on vacation, rather than at home with more quarry dives.

So looking back, it was really just wanting more instruction/supervised experience in the "real world" of ocean dives.

Yes exactly! This is along the lines of what a lot of people have been saying in this thread.

This isn't the purpose of the AOW course. You should have been able to do all this with just your OWD. Not easily, not fully competently, maybe not even without some professional help along the way. That's when you'd hire a private DM or something like that. If that's not enough, maybe take another OWD course. You practise and dive until you're a decent open water diver. Then you can think about "advancing" your skills. How can you be "advanced" when you haven't even figured out the basics yet?

At least that's how it should be, in my thinking. Going back to the driving school analogy, you don't go ahead and jump into a semi truck driving school because you don't think you're ready to drive a car yet, or do you?

 

[uncfnp]

Not sure what you're saying here. There's lots and lots and lots of diving that can be done within those limits and only using the skills taught in OWD.

See post # 54

NWe're talking advanced open water here. All these aren't open water.

Exactly! Advanced open water is basic diving skills not advanced. My examples were advanced dive skills

NYes exactly! This is along the lines of what a lot of people have been saying in this thread.

We are essentially arguing the same thing so I am obviously not stating my case very well.

NThis isn't the purpose of the AOW course. You should have been able to do all this with just your OWD. Not easily, not fully competently, maybe not even without some professional help along the way. That's when you'd hire a private DM or something like that. If that's not enough, maybe take another OWD course. You practise and dive until you're a decent open water diver. Then you can think about "advancing" your skills. How can you be "advanced" when you haven't even figured out the basics yet?

if you need to hire a professional or DM to make your dives (not to enhance the dive experience) then you need more instruction...like maybe AOW.

NAt least that's how it should be, in my thinking. Going back to the driving school analogy, you don't go ahead and jump into a semi truck driving school because you don't think you're ready to drive a car yet, or do you?

Exactly! You go to truck driving school or in this case. AOW! :blinking:

 

[dfx]

if you need to hire a professional or DM to make your dives (not to enhance the dive experience) then you need more instruction...like maybe AOW.

I disagree. OWD has (or, should have) provided all the instruction you needed. You don't need (or, should not need) further instruction to do basic OW dives. You may need some guidance, but not instruction. Especially not instruction in other things than OWD.

 

[supergaijin]

When I as in the Maldives ... of the 50-60 or so "divers" who came raining down on top of us while at the manta cleaning station, there may have been one or two who managed to stop their descent without crashing into the bottom. Way more than half spent their entire time crawling on the bottom, and the few who attempted to get off the bottom were immediately intercepted by dive guides who would grab them by the hand and escort them to a coral head ... insisting that they hold onto it. I've never seen anything like it in my life ... and hope to never see it again ... but it indicated to me that lack of even basic buoyancy control wasn't an exception in that part of the world ... it was the expectation.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Many 5* resort dive centers have a real difficulty saying "No" to the customers. The clients are usually wealthy and have an expectation to do what ever they wish. One of the many reasons I left this behind (hopefully for good). I think you can still find a diver's island in the Maldives but they are getting fewer. Anything with the words '...& Spa' you should stay away from if you want a 'real' operation IME.

However 50-60 divers sounds incredible I have never seen more than maybe a baker's dozen on a given dive site- even popular ones in the Ari Atoll such as the Madivaru Rangali manta cleaning station.

 

[TSandM]

This discussion comes up periodically, and it boils down to a few things, over and over again. "Advanced" is a bad name for a class that you can come out of with nine total lifetime dives. "AOW" classes vary from instructor to instructor, with some being pretty toothless, and others being very challenging, and when you should take the class depends on which type of class you are taking. And it is controversial as to whether any sort of "deep" dive should be included, and whether the class should certify someone to do deeper dives.

For me, taking AOW immediately after OW was pretty much a necessity. As happens with a number of Puget Sound students, four dives did not even remotely prepare me to do independent diving in cold, murky water, and I was too nervous to get in the water without an instructor. Five more dives didn't make me "advanced", nor did I think it did; what five more dives did do was give me enough confidence to try some diving with non-professional buddies.

Our local diving conditions are quite capable of flummoxing visiting divers with no experience in cold water and low visibility. It doesn't surprise me that a fair number of students are not ready to head out on their own (or don't think they are) after four lifetime dives. Peter strongly encourages his students to go directly into AOW (or do it very soon) for a number of reasons, none of which have to do with putting another dollar in. He knows that signing up for another class is likely to get the students back in the water, and he also knows that, after going through the exercises he uses for his class, the student will feel more comfortable about taking off and going diving -- and that's what keeps people in the sport.

 

[DevonDiver]

A competent diver that can not go beyond 60 feet, has never dove night or wreck, most likely has never deployed a surface safety sausage. He may indeed be competent but his dive universe will be very small, unless he goes beyond his teaching...

Competency is measured against the activity undertaken. For instance, you can be a competent OW diver, but an incompetent wreck diver. Given that 'diving within the limits of your training and experience' is a core principle in Safe Diving Practices, this makes perfect sense.

Most experienced divers will agree that the most prudent method of progression is to gain competency at your current level before advancing to new levels.

It is hard to get the time, practice and expertise when you are limited by the skills taught in the OW class

If only more people did focus on the skills gained on OW - and took the time to ingrain and refine them. Most don't - and it shows.

There's a famous quote:

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times". - Bruce Lee

Applying this principle to diving makes good sense. It's where the 'card collectors' and 'zero-to-heros' go wrong.

The foundations of competent diving are reliable and precise open-water skills. Plain and simple.

That's one reason why I don't criticize the AOW course for not introducing a plethora of new skills. It's an ideal opportunity to apply open-water skills in different contexts, with the benefit of safe supervision and instructor feedback/critique for directed performance improvement.