Appropriate No of Logged dives to become a DM/instructor

[hroark2112]

I'm working on my instructor training right now. I love working with students and even with DSD people. That being said I have no intention of teaching OW on my own until I'm 100% ready.

I don't care how many dives you have, there's always something new to learn.

 

[DiversSupplyPDC]

Must agree some should never be rated but most folks with 60-100 dives can be trained.

Some believe you must have vast knowledge and ratings to begin DMc but is just not so.
* Yes, your heart doctor has more training and experience than the average PG doc.
** Does not take a F-1 driver to teach someone to drive the normal family sedan.

The average Joe just does not require their Instructor or DM to be a worldly ultra super Tech diver to teach them.

Boulderjohn above hits it pretty well on the head of the nail.

 

[DevonDiver]

\My question is this. Is 60 logged dives prior to qualification of a DM and or 100 logged dives for an Instructor – an appropriate experience level?

You need to refine your question. What goal is specified?

If the goal is to increase profits by selling more threadbare 'pro' courses, then 60 dives experience would be a fair minimum. How else would you run zero-to-hero programs?... and what would be the point of introducing a 'pro' hard-sell straight off the bat in OW course materials?

I've found it ironic that PADI (for example only, as other agencies have similar standards) set the experience prerequisite for 'self-reliant' (solo) diver training at 100 dives; and yet divemaster is only 60. So.... you can be responsible for the lives and safety of others with barely more than half the experience deemed necessary to take sole responsibility for your own safety??? Someone explain that to me...

Of course, 'logged dives' is only a representation of 'anticipated experience' in measurable form as a quantity. The quality of experience matters equally, if not more so, but that can't be measured numerically. That said, how much 'quality' experience can be gained in only 60 dives? And accounting for supervised training dives and/or supervised or guided fun dives.... how many of those dives actually contribute to the acquisition of quality, independent, diving experience? Very few, I suspect...

I'd be happier to see a division and definition of 'acceptable' dives counting towards the prerequisite rather than simply increasing the bar numerically. Perhaps something like "60 dives total, including no less than 40 dives unsupervised/conducted without professional support or guidance"...

A quality, rather than quantity, approach is what is needed. That's hard to express numerically though. "Hard" isn't impossible...and shouldn't stop good measures being put into place though...

 

[TSandM]

I agree that it shouldn't be a number of dives . . . it should be a skills assessment.

When I got certified and discovered I loved diving, I was hell bent for leather headed for professional classes -- I was enjoying what I was doing so much that I couldn't imagine NOT teaching it! Then I actually got to dive with some people who knew how -- like NWGratefulDiver -- and discovered how much I had to learn. I backed off for six years. By the time I got my DM, I had close to 1000 dives and technical and cave certifications. No, I don't think everybody has to go that far, but I like the principle that everyone who teaches ought to hold a certification significantly higher than the people they are teaching, or at the very least, have a skill level FAR beyond their students. Not only should they be able to execute in the water, well enough both to demonstrate and correct, but also to make valid plans and salvage situations gone wrong, but they should also have a solid and USABLE understanding of what they are doing, so that they can clearly and concisely answer student questions, and they should have a broad enough diving experience to be able to relate the class requirements to the students' plans in a vivid and compelling way.

I think it comes down to maturity. Young divers (in diving age, not chronological) shouldn't try to teach. Those who have been enough places and tried enough things to have a balanced and philosophical approach, as well as absolutely solid skills, should be the teachers.

 

[DevonDiver]

I agree that it shouldn't be a number of dives . . . it should be a skills assessment.

Not a skills assessment - a diving assessment.

DM already has a skills assessment (OW skills graded on 'demonstration' quality). That said, the skills are only partially reflective of the full breadth of diving competencies necessary to describe a safe diver. Either way, it does nothing to ensure the competency of the individual for dive supervision and leadership.

A prospective student seeking DM training should already be a competent scuba diver, who does not rely upon supervisory guidance/support to plan and conduct safe dives. That's a bare minimum competency prerequisite in my eyes. It is even more important when considering that DM is the 'gateway' to instructor... and that the instructor course does no further assessment or training on all-round diving competency.... a 'qualified' DM is assumed to have mastered diving at supervisory level. The system fails here...

Every pro level course should start with a competency assessment, to confirm prerequisite skill and knowledge, IMHO. It should be pass/fail... and the standards should reflect the responsibility and trust that the candidate aspires to hold.

 

[Searcaigh]

I consider myself a reasonably experienced diver, having been diving for almost three decades.

I occasionally take courses that interest me in order to advance my diving, the most recent being a Reef Check course run by a marine biologist who also happens to be a CMAS instructor. I had dived with her before and was well aware that she had great diving skills before I actually was aware that she was an instructor, so it was no surprise that when she told me later that she was an instructor.

When I plan on taking a new course, I expect the instructor to be very proficient in whatever they are teaching, that is their job! Of course I am not expecting top of the range instructors as mentioned previously such as F1 drivers giving driving lessons, but at least an instructor with very good diving skills who also has the knowledge and ability to teach another side of diving whether that be related to marine biology, tech, wreck etc, etc.

In the past year I have come across a few DMs and Instructors whose ability to dive was questionable and I really wonder in what cereal packet they found their C card.

Of course for somebody starting diving they have none or very little experience in which to gauge whether or not their instructor is good, bad or mediocre, but that is the same with all aspects of life in which teaching plays a part. Word of mouth plays a huge part in choosing the correct instructor but if you do not know anyone already involved in diving how do you really know the instructor that you have chosen is good enough until you start and get into the water with them? Already discussed in another thread elsewhere.

I believe a proper skills assessment prior to starting a DM / Instructor course should be mandatory, with the necessary advice to those who cannot meet the prerequisite levels to go out and practice more before coming back to start the course. More of an entrance exam to the DM or Instructor course than learning during the DM or Instructor course. Perhaps this already exists, if so then I am not aware of it.

 

[TMHeimer]

Skills assessment instead seems logical. Type of dives maybe, but maybe more importantly that the candidate has a lot of experience where his/her DMing will take place. It doesn't matter if you have no cold water experience at all if you never teach/DM there. 158 was my total and that seemed OK for me. Not 60 for sure. 100 for Instructor thus also too low. I wouldn't worry about lack of candidates if the required # is raised. There may be no change at all here as DMs and Instructors rack up a lot more dives after becomming pros anyway. From what I read there are way too many DMs and Instructors now and it is very difficult to make any kind of living at it. And many DMs work for tips or nada.

 

[Nwcid]

** Does not take a F-1 driver to teach someone to drive the normal family sedan.

No, but you also don't get driving instructors with 1 year experience diving a total of 12,000-15,000 miles.

 

[Bob DBF]

300 acceptable dives made inside the past 3 years for DM and 500 dives / 5 years max for instructors. Perhaps with a more experienced and probably more skillful and motivated candidates, the quality of professional training can also be improved. A skills assessment may be good but it is dependent on the instructor, his skills, and perhaps how much he needs a DMC.

The DM mill for free labor should be stopped, and I believe that once the instant gratification is gone so will most of the candidates, that will never work as DM's anyway, and a more professional group will develop. I can't think of a group of professionals that, as a group, can not make a living at their chosen profession.

As for the number of dives, I could easily qualify if I swapped out free diving for more tank diving, and I am only a hobby diver at the mercy of the weather and my work schedule.



Bob
-----------------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

 

[Tigerman]

Numbers != experience...
2000 uneventful dives in the same quarry might have taught you how to navigate that quarry blindfolded and allowed you to get your bouyancy dialed in.. but you havent experienced much..
Now if you have had several rescues, dived tropical, freezing, currents, zero visibility from boats and from shore in your 60 dives - you might be more experienced than someone with a lot more dives..