Are hydros really necessary?

[kwinter]

"Required" and "mandated" are strong words. When it comes to diving, the DOT "rules" are actually more like suggested guidelines. For the average Joe Diver who has his own tanks, he will have a hard time getting them filled at a shop because their insurance would require them to abide by all regulations and guidelines. If Joe Diver has his own compressor, he is free to do whatever he wants with his own tanks and has no one to blame but himself if there is a problem. For a shop that is renting or using tanks with paying customers, they are playing with fire if something goes wrong. It is stupid and probably violates their insurance, so they would be hung out to dry if there was a problem. Then again, most dive shops (and their owners) don't have much in the way of assets that are at risk. But if they load those tanks into a vehicle and hit the road with them, then they are clearly in violation of DOT regs.

The question I would be asking is what other commonly accepted safety measures is this shop skipping. Are they servicing their rental regs? Washing their rental wetsuits? Taking shortcuts with their classes? The chances of a tank failing are small. I have had one tank fail in 30+ years. But it doesn't provide a good image to have their whole fleet overdue for hydro.

 

[sharkbaitDAN]

"Required" and "mandated" are strong words. When it comes to diving, the DOT "rules" are actually more like suggested guidelines.

No, they're still required and mandated. A low likelihood of being caught does not make an action less illegal.

For the average Joe Diver who has his own tanks, he will have a hard time getting them filled at a shop because their insurance would require them to abide by all regulations and guidelines.

I don't know any good shop that would fill an out of hydro cylinder. Not only does it violate insurance, the DOT can go after them directly. Hazmat violations are not generally taken lightly if they are discovered.

For a shop that is renting or using tanks with paying customers, they are playing with fire if something goes wrong. It is stupid and probably violates their insurance, so they would be hung out to dry if there was a problem. Then again, most dive shops (and their owners) don't have much in the way of assets that are at risk.

It definitely violates insurance. I know of no insurance policy that covers illegal actions, and violating DOT regs is a Federal crime. As to assets, shop owners may not be wealthy, but the shop, inventory and fixtures are all worth money when sold. If a shop is hung out to dry, they better hope those assets are enough to cover legal defense and a possible loss in court. And if they did a shoddy job with their incorporation or partnership papers (or let them lapse), the owner may be personally liable. I recently won a lawsuit against someone who didn't have enough to pay. Their credit is toast for the next 10 years (at the least), and they're going to be paying in installments until 2018 (at least).

But if they load those tanks into a vehicle and hit the road with them, then they are clearly in violation of DOT regs.

A dive boat for hire is most certainly a vehicle (commercial vessel) for purposes of DOT regs, and scuba cylinders are considered a type of hazardous material (49 CFR 173.115(b) (1)).

The question I would be asking is what other commonly accepted safety measures is this shop skipping. Are they servicing their rental regs? Washing their rental wetsuits? Taking shortcuts with their classes?

I agree with you on all of this. Aside from the fact that not getting hydros is stupid from a liability point of view, it raises serious questions about the rest of their practices and procedures. I would also add: are they cheating during CG inspections and do they actually have working safety equipment for diving (oxygen, first aid, life jackets, etc)?

 

[eelnoraa]

... I was also more than 99% sure we would survive the day.

This percentage is too low for me.

 

[kwinter]

(ii) No cylinder required to be retested by paragraph (e)(1)(i) of this section may be
charged or filled with a hazardous material and transported in commerce unless that cylinder has been inspected and retested in accordance with this section and the retester has marked the cylinder by stamping the date of retest, the cylinder retester identification number unless excepted under this section, and any other marking required by this section.

My understanding has always been that this is not regulation with criminal penalty. And transporting your own tanks for your own purpose does not fall within the purview of DOT. But I think we are in general agreement that it is pretty dumb and would violate the shop's insurance.

 

[sharkbaitDAN]

(ii) No cylinder required to be retested by paragraph (e)(1)(i) of this section may be
charged or filled with a hazardous material and transported in commerce unless that cylinder has been inspected and retested in accordance with this section and the retester has marked the cylinder by stamping the date of retest, the cylinder retester identification number unless excepted under this section, and any other marking required by this section.

My understanding has always been that this is not regulation with criminal penalty. And transporting your own tanks for your own purpose does not fall within the purview of DOT. But I think we are in general agreement that it is pretty dumb and would violate the shop's insurance.

My understanding of the quoted section is that if you transport an out of hydro cylinder, it is supposed to be empty, and I realize none of these regs were really intended for recreational scuba divers. Here is the wikipedia page for class 2.2 hazardous materials, which is a good synopsis of the CFR section I used above: HAZMAT Class 2 Gases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It would also seem to indicate that we are all supposed to have placards whenever we have scuba tanks in our cars, and separate ones for O2. I can't recall ever seeing someone with the correct placard.

As to penalties, they are listed under the Hazardous Materials Transportation Act:
Civil and Criminal
Again, I'm not saying it is a major risk violating any of this on its own, but if someone were to come after you for something else, I could see violations used to prove you acted negligently and/or recklessly, and then the DOT might decide to get some easy money out of you.

 

[Scubadude_LA]

Hydros are inexpensive. Just do them. Especially on Aluminum IMHO. Eddy test on ALs is comforting as well.
I see talk of the filler getting blown to mars, but anyone in proximity of the tank everywhere the tank goes is at risk.
How long would you really be willing to go without a test? 10 years, so you save $30ish over 10 years. 3 bucks a year.
Just do it.

 

[Stoo]

The chances of a tank failing are small. I have had one tank fail in 30+ years. But it doesn't provide a good image to have their whole fleet overdue for hydro.

And you're alive to talk about it? I take it you mean it failed the hydro, as opposed to exploding?

Slightly off topic, but a shop I managed in Tobermory 30 years or so ago, changed hands while I worked there, and the new owner was known to take shortcuts of all sorts. Long after I left, he added two large storage bottles to his bank, and as was his tendency, he chose not to bother to have these hydro'd. He also routinely over-filled them, which in itself, isn't normally an issue. However, coupled with a failure to test the tanks led to the unfortunate and perhaps inevitable failure of the bottle...

The explosion levelled the concrete block compressor building and the dive shop. It caused extensive damage to surrounding buildings. One person was killed, and pieces of shrapnel were found almost a kilometer (.6 miles) away. One chunk sheared off a 5" tree and embedded itself in the wall of a cottage across the bay. The owner was standing in that exact spot 10 minutes earlier.

Fortunately this occurred mid week, because had it happened on a weekend, it's entirely possible that dozens of people would have been killed.

The owner was ultimately charged with something, negligent homicide perhaps, but passed away before the trial. I knew this guy well, and he would never have dreamed that his shortcuts would ultimately kill someone, but when it did, the stress killed him as well. Most people in this sport, including many dive shop employees, have no idea that the high-pressure air systems have the potential to kill and maim. I'm surprised that there isn't some sort of certification process required to build, install and maintain these things...

 

[lemke]

First of all, I do not condone the practice of NOT hydro'ing tanks. But, for arguments sake, the DOT requirement for a hydro is for tanks that are transported on a public road... be it the interstate or a neighborhood street. So if a tank is never transported... only goes from the dockside dive shop to the boat, is it required to be hydro'ed? I'm just playing devil's advocate here...

 

[sharkbaitDAN]

If it is a commercial dive boat it is interstate commerce for purposes of the Hazardous Materials Transportation Act because all commercial vessels are covered unless they fall under an exception (49 CFR 176.5). The DOT is responsible for regulating transportation of goods and people, not just on roads, but by any means: rail, aircraft, vessel or public highway.

 

[lemke]

Ah, of course, doh!