Article on Ben McDaniel - Vortex Springs Case

[The Chairman]

Personally, I am glad that there will be at least "One Voice of Reason" among all the sensationalized reports. Simply sweeping things under the rug rarely is never a satisfying solution. There are many cavers out there who were not a part of this who would appreciate the insights.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Its a tightnit community, cavers could just ask.

 

[The Chairman]

Its a tightnit community, cavers could just ask.

And get hearsay. What if someone is not a part of this "tightnit" community? They don't deserve to know the truth? I think its the responsible thing to have a unified voice FROM the cave community about how dangerous Cave Diving is and how inappropriate McDaniels was, even though none of us thinks he is down there. You don't want to talk about it, so don't talk. You've done your part and now Jill and Robert are doing theirs. Kudos to you and to them. Hopefully, your reticence will be duly noted.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

What makes information hearsay from one media, and not hearsay from another?


Why isn't the new movie just glittery hearsay?


I understand you're looking forward to putting ScubaBoard fingers into the pot, it doesn't make it any more(or less) factual.

 

[The Chairman]

I understand you're looking forward to putting ScubaBoard fingers into the pot, it doesn't make it any more(or less) factual.

Wow... that little put down just so clearly misses my motivation here. I hope it makes you feel better about yourself, as I don't understand why you are trying to slap me down. Good show on missing the broad side of the barn.

Does the COMMUNITY have a vested interest in this? Yes it does. Our collective fingers, including yours, are already in the pot. That being said, the predominant viewpoint of the press to this point is that Ben was some sort of diving demi-god. You are clearly comfortable with leaving this inaccuracy largely unchallenged, while others aren't. While you are entirely free to have a bitter outlook on ALL press, I think you are being short sighted and a bit of a drama queen here. Fortunately for us, Jill and Robert don't need your permission or cooperation to finish this project. Quite a number of us are looking forward to seeing a more responsible handling of the facts from people who share our perspective.

One of the things that has hampered the dive community for years, is this "you don't need to know" mentality. As I see it, those who try to enforce it the hardest are on some sort of power trip. I get the mental image of Jack Nicholson's character arrogantly barking "You can't handle the truth!" Condescension, slap downs and the like are all tools used to try and squash or intimidate people from gaining a different view or perspective as the one being proffered by the power hungry. I hear it all the time about our Accidents and Incidents forum from a couple of professionals. I have even been asked by one individual repeatedly to cull that aspect of ScubaBoard as he feels that "only professionals" should be allowed to be heard on such matters. Why? In the final analysis, its apparent that this is eroding his power base. Some of our hobby sleuths make far more sense than he does and he just can't stand the competition. No, I am not accusing SuPrBuGmAn of being a crazed power hungry individual intent on squashing the truth. He's a nice guy and we have even talked in person. However, the hint of such an attitude really frosts my bananas and I am compelled to point it out.

Like it or not, our lives are increasingly being lived in the fish bowl of social media. You can either use social media to your advantage or let social media use you to its advantage. Sticking your head in the sand will not and can not spare you from the invasion of privacy that is social media. Just because you don't see it, does not mean that it can't see you. Jill and Robert have seen this and are using it in a positive way. Major kudos to them for seeing what others wish to ignore.

 

[57Writer]

What makes information hearsay from one media, and not hearsay from another?


Why isn't the new movie just glittery hearsay?

I guess the film will speak for itself. We are trying to get as close to the truth as possible. We have conducted months of research and interviews. Believe me, there was nothing "glittery" about it. It is just boring investigative journalism, going over reams of documents, interviewing some people with whom I'd rather not be in the same room. Plus, we very quietly hired several world-renown cave divers, with decades of experience, to slip into Vortex and search for evidence, all while filming these efforts in HD. And our director, Jill Heinerth, is a well respected voice in the world of cave diving, whose integrity is beyond question. (Full disclosure: also my wife.)

I understand you're looking forward to putting ScubaBoard fingers into the pot, it doesn't make it any more(or less) factual.

Really? That is news to me. I have financed this film, and control all rights. There is no "pot." ScubaBoard as an entity has had no input or official participation with this project. Now, individual ScubaBoard members, who were close to the incident, or have strong opinions about McDaniel, have been contacted by our producers and asked to participate. Some did, some did not.

I am proud of what we have shot and edited so far, and will stand behind it. I am also totally respectful of anyone's opinion that this incident is a black-eye to the diving community-but I respectfully disagree that our film will further that opinion. And I am happy to discuss all of this with the ScubaBoard community as we move forward.

Thanks for the lively discussion.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Does the COMMUNITY have a vested interest in this? Yes it does. Our collective fingers, including yours, are already in the pot. That being said, the predominant viewpoint of the press to this point is that Ben was some sort of diving demi-god. You are clearly comfortable with leaving this inaccuracy largely unchallenged, while others aren't. While you are entirely free to have a bitter outlook on ALL press, I think you are being short sighted and a bit of a drama queen here. Fortunately for us, Jill and Robert don't need your permission or cooperation to finish this project. Quite a number of us are looking forward to seeing a more responsible handling of the facts from people who share our perspective.

Nobody hear needs my permission for anything. Luckily, I don't have to ask permission to voice my own thoughts either. You don't have to agree with them, I'm 100% OK with that

You've seemed to have missed my point as well. Jill and whoever else, isn't going to be known to Joe-smoe on the streets. What they have to say probably won't have any influence over any opinion they have on the situation after they've come to whatever conclusion based on their favorite news cast talking head. So yeah, in my opinion, the sooner the public forgets about Ben McDaniels, the better it is for cave divers to continue trying to get Joe-smoe to think that cave divers aren't a bunch of unsafe idiots trying to kack themselves in their springs/sinks/ect.

One of the things that has hampered the dive community for years, is this "you don't need to know" mentality. As I see it, those who try to enforce it the hardest are on some sort of power trip. I get the mental image of Jack Nicholson's character arrogantly barking "You can't handle the truth!" Condescension, slap downs and the like are all tools used to try and squash or intimidate people from gaining a different view or perspective as the one being proffered by the power hungry. I hear it all the time about our Accidents and Incidents forum from a couple of professionals. I have even been asked by one individual repeatedly to cull that aspect of ScubaBoard as he feels that "only professionals" should be allowed to be heard on such matters. Why? In the final analysis, its apparent that this is eroding his power base. Some of our hobby sleuths make far more sense than he does and he just can't stand the competition. No, I am not accusing SuPrBuGmAn of being a crazed power hungry individual intent on squashing the truth. He's a nice guy and we have even talked in person. However, the hint of such an attitude really frosts my bananas and I am compelled to point it out.

I agree 100%, which is why I openly shared what I knew of the situation with divers - those who can appreciate and learn from the information. Go through the threads, find out where I've done anything BUT share that information with divers.

What we as a diving community can learn from this situation, and what the general public beleives and hears are two seperate things.

Have you ever been denied access to a cave site after a divers death? I have. Its a bummer. I'd much rather them forget about the last body pulled out than to keep getting reminded of it.

Believe me, there was nothing "glittery" about it.

Have you seen your own preview? As with all things you guys put out, the production value is great. Sound, visuals, dialoge-teasers are all very eye/ear-catching.

Its coming across as very glittery, although I'm sure you'd not get the audience you'd want with a simple boring interview. Glitter makes the audience want to see it, please don't pretend otherwise.

Really? That is news to me. I have financed this film, and control all rights. There is no "pot." ScubaBoard as an entity has had no input or official participation with this project. Now, individual ScubaBoard members, who were close to the incident, or have strong opinions about McDaniel, have been contacted by our producers and asked to participate. Some did, some did not.

There's more to the pot than just money. Free advertising can't be a bad thing. If I'm wrong and a Scubaboard logo isn't going to show up anywhere on the credits, background, or on someones t-shirt in the interview; then I can admit I'm in the wrong. I have no qualms with doing so.

I am proud of what we have shot and edited so far, and will stand behind it. I am also totally respectful of anyone's opinion that this incident is a black-eye to the diving community-but I respectfully disagree that our film will further that opinion. And I am happy to discuss all of this with the ScubaBoard community as we move forward.

Thanks for the lively discussion.

I would hope you'd be proud of your work. Like I said, I don't expect anyone to ask me for permission, but here(and on several other forums) I do have a way to voice my opinion - whether its shared or not. Goodluck, the preview does catch ones attention.

 

[57Writer]

There's more to the pot than just money. Free advertising can't be a bad thing. If I'm wrong and a Scubaboard logo isn't going to show up anywhere on the credits, background, or on someones t-shirt in the interview; then I can admit I'm in the wrong. I have no qualms with doing so.

ScubaBoard, facebook and Cave Diver's Forum are mentioned in some scenes, because part of the film is the reaction people had to the incident on various Social Media sites. There are no overt placements. If we interview someone and they happen to have a Dive Rite hat or a Cave Adventures jacket, that is simply the nature of documentary film making. This is not some Hollywood dramatic fictional movie - it is a journalistic documentary. We do "dress locations and sets" to a small degree, mostly to remove unwanted things in the background. And, yes, we need to catch people's attention in a 2 minute trailer, so trailers are always a bit fast paced. (Glittery?)

We will likely arrange some type of exclusive pre-screenings for the dive community in various locations. ScubaBoard is welcome to sponsor dive community screenings, as are the NACD, NSSCDS, Deco Stop, equipment manufacturers, dive clubs, and so on...we haven't gotten that far yet.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It is always good to hear objections as well as praise. Objections make us think about what we can do to make this better. We'll know we have a good film when you give it 4 Stars. I hope we can meet the challenge.

 

[boulderjohn]

Does the COMMUNITY have a vested interest in this? Yes it does. ..That being said, the predominant viewpoint of the press to this point is that Ben was some sort of diving demi-god. You are clearly comfortable with leaving this inaccuracy largely unchallenged, while others aren't.

While all the original drama was going on, I was really bothered by this. I remember going to another (non-scuba) forum in which friends of Ben were talking about the search for his body. They clearly thought he was a supreme cave diver. In one post that nearly made me vomit, one of them said that some of the people looking for him (I believe referencing Edd Sorenson specifically) were excellent divers--"maybe even better than Ben."

One of the main reasons that non-certified divers die in caves is because they so dramatically underestimate the amount of skill and training it takes to dive caves safely. If this movie succeeds in jolting some more potential Bens into a state approaching reality, then it will serve an excellent purpose. If it is not made, then the myth that survives for many will be that the almost total lack of training and the minimal practice Ben had prior to this is all you need to rise to the ranks of the greatest cave divers in the world.

In the last few weeks the world has seen a number of divers outside of the cave community die doing dives beyond their level of training. I think that anything we can do to bring out the danger of this will do the dive community in general a service.

 

[springs4me]

I'd rather have Jill and Robert do this film than anyone else because they are a part of the cave diving community!