Best alternate air configuration

[MikeS]

Albion once bubbled...
I am not anti long hose it just seems uneccesary for recreational diving, and in my region i am now seeing lots of divers using this principal, i think more due to the fact it looks cool.

I have not yet experienced a diver coming to me low on air in an actual situation, but can imagine that in worst case scenario a panicked diver is just going to snatch your primary without asking, what happens with a long hose round your neck?

At this point in life I’ve pretty much given up on trying to look cool. However, if I was going to attempt to look cool, I’d get some nice sunglasses and a Dee Rag to wear when I got back on the boat. I dive with a long hose simply because it’s the best way to share air.

I have experienced a diver coming to me low on air in an actual situation. However, they weren’t panicked and I calmly donated them my primary reg on the long hose. At that point, we were both comfortable and able to independently control our buoyancy allowing us to calmly swim horizontally to the platform and then safely ascend, including a safety stop, using one of the lines as a visual reference. In practicality, I don’t think we could have done this with a standard octo configuration.

The hose does not actually go around your neck; rather it is routed behind your head. I cannot imagine any way a panic diver could grab the regulator and choke you. Again, I suggest you try it because one OOA drill with a long hose is worth ten bazillion Scuba Board posts.

Mike

 

[MikeFerrara]

LUBOLD8431 once bubbled...


Mike, dont these too statements contradict eachother? Are you saying that you teach your students to ascend using their BC as an elevator? You stated first that you should be neutral at all times, then you say that you shouldnt be kicking to change depth. I am confused, please explain...

No the bc isn't used as a elevator. People who do that add air to ascend and that's bad.

Your diving neutral right? What do you need to do to begin an ascent? Arch your back and think up. As you ascend vent as needed. When you reach the depth you want to be at you level out and think stop. Not staying neutral is how uncontrol ascents and descents happen especially to new divers.

Hell if you had on my double 104's and tried to vent your bladder and swim up you'd end up plastered to the bottom in the middle of the impact crator you made.

I was countering a Albions statement that he vents his bc and then swims up.

 

[Doppler]

First, a disclaimer... I dive and teach Hogarthian not DIR, so stone me now. . (At some point, someone should really explain this stuff?!)

Anyway, it was suggested to put a 7-foot hose on a single tank rig... probably a little too long, try a 5-foot. Works better... routes better. Also asked was: won't the long hose strangle you... already answered but worth restating... NO! Learn how to use and dploy it and it's safer and slicker than anything else in a OAA emergency.

Advantages of a long hose are legion, but include retaining control of the immediate situation... ability to move around the OOA diver or away from should that be necessary. Which leads to the next point... the first rule in an emergency is: "self-preservation." You can't help someone if you're injured or dead... and sometimes being 5 (or 7) feet away might make the difference.

Just a thought

DD

P.S. Good posts Mike

 

[ElectricZombie]

Albion once bubbled...
Forth place – conventional set up two regs with standard length hoses, one in your mouth and one in the magic triangle zone. This seems the worst configuration but the one most divers use. The other diver is out of air and maybe hasn’t attracted your attention in time, he swims towards you and sees a reg in your mouth, the spare is probably stuck in a pocket out of the way, or with the mouth piece stuffed into one of those red ball things or somewhere else where it wont dangle, and / or possible full of sand or other such. His first choice is going to be the one in your mouth leaving you to find the afore mentioned spare.
Plusses – easy to swap regs sets around

I agree, this is one of the worst setups around.

Third Place – DIR - main reg on a long hose up your body and round your neck, spare on a necklace. Same situation as above diver comes at you grabs the one in your mouth, you can easily find the spare, but find yourself either strung up nicely with reg hose round your neck like a nose, or looking at the fins of a panicked diver heading to the surface on the end of 7ft of hose.
Plusses – low entanglement / dragging items

With this setup, you will not be "strung up" with the 7' hose. A buddy dragging you to the surface is possible with any setup. The backup reg in the DIR setup is in the best possible place.

Second place – main reg in your mouth, spare reg on the inflator AIR2 / Octo+ style. Diver panics grabs your main reg, you reach out with left hand to the inflator that is always where it is, and stick it in your mouth. The other diver is still close so you can get control of him.
Plusses – less hoses = less clutter and risk of dangling equipment.
also being an inflator means this piece of kit is regularly used, I use mine most dives to inflate my SMB.
Minus – it is always attached to BCD so may suffer damage from being thrown around. (Lower reliability – mine has been working for 6 years without problem, it’s not an issue)

This is probably the worst setup. You can do a search for AIR2 to see the reasoning...it is too long for me to repeat.

If you are going for pure safety and efficiency, a set of doubles rigged DIR style is the way to go. You have complete redundancy and the regs are located where they need to be to do the most good.

 

[Dan Gibson]

LUBOLD8431,

You can use your lungs to initiate the ascent as well as a slight skulling of the fins.

 

[Albion]

Mike
I have an APEX octo + which i havev used for 6 years now over 400 dives, as i mentioned before the only problem i ever had with it was slight free flow, which stopped once the reg was fully wet.
I have used it at a depth of 40m too, so imho that is good enough.

I delfate and at that pooint provided i have looked after my air, i am pretty much neutral not an actual hard core swimming ascent, i agree with you there, neutral is better

This post was concerned with rec diving not tech, and if i offended anyone by saying cool in terms of long hose, it was not pointed at anyone in particular but certain indivudals doing 20m reef dives in a DIR setup. (and me knowing this is all they do)

I think the the airII (not necesariylu that brand as i hhave not used it) is a definite step up from the stadard config. Yes the inflator hose is longer than DIR divers would like but does that mater so much for rec divers. I have a video and like to get very close to the subject, agian i do not find my inflator to be in the way or dragging. maybe if i was doing a penetration dive it would concern me.

 

[otobmark]

I dive w/ my 2 teenage sons and my emphasis is "self rescue". We all have 19cuft pony bottles w/ it's second stage on a necklace. If you run out of air or have a malfunction just duck your chin and you feel the pony second stage right there. I don't have to worry about my boys coming at me in a crazed out of air frenzy! We have octos as well attached to right shoulder harness on normal length hoses. We often share with these to balance out air supplies. If I'm breathing off my son's octo I put my left hand on his right shoulder and travel just above and beside him. If a diver comes at me in a panic and grabs at my face, I will simply tow his (now) unconscious body to the surface! As a older adult, I have not run out of air. While a youth back in the late 60's-70's, my standard way to dive was to stay down till I ran out of air and then surface. I would avoid strenious activity as I neared my estimated end of air, and would just surface after empty. About every 6 or 8 feet of rise you can sip more air from the tank. While I certainly avoid this now, I don't remember ever having a bad experience on my frequent out of air ascents(usually from 40-60ft). I do NOT have super lungs either, being a very mediocre free diver.

 

[MonkSeal]

otobmark once bubbled...
If a diver comes at me in a panic and grabs at my face, I will simply tow his (now) unconscious body to the surface!

And potentialy cause him a DCI.

While a youth back in the late 60's-70's, my standard way to dive was to stay down till I ran out of air and then surface. I would avoid strenious activity as I neared my estimated end of air, and would just surface after empty. About every 6 or 8 feet of rise you can sip more air from the tank. While I certainly avoid this now, I don't remember ever having a bad experience on my frequent out of air ascents (usually from 40-60ft). I do NOT have super lungs either, being a very mediocre free diver.

Luckily, it's not a standard today (I doubt it was a standard these days also). Ascending in OOA situation from 40-60ft doesn't have anything with lungs (as far as you don't keep your breath) but it has (!) with DCI. Even if your dive profile is in safety limits (and you skip safety stop), fast ascent can cause microbubbles growth and can cause DCI. I believe that you're (as experienced diver) aware of that.

MonkSeal

 

[otobmark]

MonkSeal once bubbled...
"And potentialy cause him a DCI."

I'm glad you brought that up Monk, I read a study a few years back about a guy who studied bringing up unconscious divers. He went so far as to go down and and have himself knocked out and then brought up unconscious. His research showed that unconscious divers had open air passages and were in little danger of burst lungs and did not ingest significant quantities of water. The point was, if you find an unconscious diver do not try to put a regulator in his mouth but simply bring him up at a safe rate of ascent to the surface and then deal with him (obviously if he or you require deco, it's off to the chamber). I may have read this on Scuba Doc, not sure. About the same time I read some great articles about inwater recompression using O2 and full face mask but that's another story.....

MonkSeal :
" Even if your dive profile is in safety limits (and you skip safety stop), fast ascent can cause microbubbles growth and can cause DCI. I believe that you're (as experienced diver) aware of that."

Yes, I'm aware of that now (I've had 2 MRI's...no brain lesions). Even then I was a leisurely surfacer, usually well under the 60 ft/min standard of the time. In an emergency I would still easily risk it. My worst senario is to be swiming OOA madly toward my distant buddy and not getting to him in time and then face a uncontrolled drop weights free ascent exhausted on the verge of passing out! Immediate free ascent while some O2 is still in my system and my head clear seems the lesser of evils. I think the trying to reach an "out of reach" buddy is more dangerous than OOA ascent.

The real point of my post was to not be dependant on your buddy or him on you. SELF RESCUE. What is everybody's opinion on that?
Mark

 

[deanmartin]

This is an interesting discussion


Neil:

I don't recall a standard configuration from any of my NAUI training. However pages 231 and 232 of my NAUI Master Scuba Diver book it reads:

" Most octopus regulators come complete with a hose longer than that of the primary second stage. If you intend to pass your primary second stage to your buddy in case of and out-of air emergency, switch the longer hose to your primary second stage and use the shorter hose on your octopus rig. You will also find this shorter hose length makes it easier to manage the octopus rig while it is not in use."

Regards