Kayla
Contributor
you made it back safely!
Kayla
Kayla
Big Mistake
- Thread starter SeaJay
- Start date
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Spectre
Contributor
I know the question is for Pug, but I'm probably sure my answer will be the same as his.
You thumb the dive.
CuriousMe
Guest
Spectre once bubbled...
I know the question is for Pug, but I'm probably sure my answer will be the same as his.
You thumb the dive.
I've been following/lurking through the thread and this is one point I keep coming back to. SeaJay, I understand and respect you posting this which allows many to learn from your mistake. But, did your buddy thumb the dive at 12 minutes and you communicated somehow that you wanted to stay longer? And then they just went along with this?
If that's the case, neither you or your buddy followed the dive plan....cause I think we can agree that "sticking with your buddy" isn't really a dive plan...that's buddy skills, not a plan. A plan should at least have time, depth, turning pressure and a general goal (even if that goal is just to look around in that direction till we turn around <grin>), right?
Anyway, just my .02...thanks for letting us dissect your dive...it's been an interesting exercise and very informative.
Most of all, I'm glad that the lesson wasn't to expensive, and that everyone came out healthy, and wiser.
Peace,
Cathie
you posted this publicly. It's nice of you to allow all of your mistakes to be aired publicly to try and keep others from making the same mistakes.
I hadn't realized I have only replied to your posts. I like to read, and only reply when a thread includes statements so blatently wrong. Sorry that has only happened to you.
I didn't attack your considerable skills before, but since you bring it up:
1. Following a dive plan is simple, one of the things covered in basic open water classes, and then emphasized in followon training. Maybe you can get a refund.
2. Spend some of that money on nitrox training. Should be one of the first things a diver does after basic ow.
3. trying to rationalize your mistake with statements like " My result, predictably, was a problem, which I managed with some of my other dive skills." are humorous. Have you had deco training to provide these skills? Are you relying too much on your "internet training"?
4. You insist that you blew your plan, yet your buddy dove his plan. There is only one plan. The dive plan. Not your plan, your buddies plan, or the "I'll figure it out as I go" plan. Just a dive plan. Simple as that.
5. Where were you taught the ascent rate of 8ft/min.? And any computer I've ever seen does not go from 3 minutes ndl to deco while ascending. It will continuously readjust the ndl. Isn't that why people use them for multilevel diving? If you leave the bottom with 3 minutes ndl, the ndl time will increase, unless maybe you take 30 minutes to reach the point where offgassing will start.
Flaming? If you don't want people commenting on your diving skills, then don't post . I haven't said anything untrue. I was trying to be nice with my previous statement "get more training". You have proved that you need it. Every post you make reinforces that fact.
Sorry that you don't want to hear the truth.
How's this to sooth your ego:
Great job Seajay. I knew you could overcome any mistakes you make in the water. You are better than a fish. Maybe you can start your own training agency to teach others those great skills.
Dive within your training
I hadn't realized I have only replied to your posts. I like to read, and only reply when a thread includes statements so blatently wrong. Sorry that has only happened to you.
I didn't attack your considerable skills before, but since you bring it up:
1. Following a dive plan is simple, one of the things covered in basic open water classes, and then emphasized in followon training. Maybe you can get a refund.
2. Spend some of that money on nitrox training. Should be one of the first things a diver does after basic ow.
3. trying to rationalize your mistake with statements like " My result, predictably, was a problem, which I managed with some of my other dive skills." are humorous. Have you had deco training to provide these skills? Are you relying too much on your "internet training"?
4. You insist that you blew your plan, yet your buddy dove his plan. There is only one plan. The dive plan. Not your plan, your buddies plan, or the "I'll figure it out as I go" plan. Just a dive plan. Simple as that.
5. Where were you taught the ascent rate of 8ft/min.? And any computer I've ever seen does not go from 3 minutes ndl to deco while ascending. It will continuously readjust the ndl. Isn't that why people use them for multilevel diving? If you leave the bottom with 3 minutes ndl, the ndl time will increase, unless maybe you take 30 minutes to reach the point where offgassing will start.
Flaming? If you don't want people commenting on your diving skills, then don't post . I haven't said anything untrue. I was trying to be nice with my previous statement "get more training". You have proved that you need it. Every post you make reinforces that fact.
Sorry that you don't want to hear the truth.
How's this to sooth your ego:
Great job Seajay. I knew you could overcome any mistakes you make in the water. You are better than a fish. Maybe you can start your own training agency to teach others those great skills.
Dive within your training
Waterlover
Contributor
TROLL!!!!!!
are you suggesting that Nanook is really a Seajay sockpuppet using megaproxy to post counterpoints to his own thread thereby trolling us all??? :wacko:
Nah...
CuriousMe
Guest
I dive with a Cobra (have a Mosquito as a backup)....but I guess I never considered that 0 was the time to start ascending...that's like running to the end of the table....why dive at the limits (I might add theoretical limits). Personally, I like more of a margin.
Peace,
Cathie
Charlie99
Contributor
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Those computers have an assumed ascent rate for which the NDL is calculated. In all cases I know of, that ascent rate is much faster than the 8 feet per minute actually used by SeaJay.
SeaJay -- if you look at decompresssion literature for stuff on "Hill vs. Haldane" you will see that your ascent profile is far from ideal.
You would have done much better with a 30fpm ascent to an initial stop of a 1-2 minutes around 50' -- but I'm sure that you saw that when using V-planner, or any of the tested programs such as Decoplanner or GAP.
Charlie
OP
SeaJay
Contributor
Okay, I'm keeping a good attitude about this.
Let me respond to each comment here, since they're really good ones. No, I'm not being sarcastic. I really mean that.
Fair enough, man. He didn't, though. Cool if that's what you would have done.
No. My buddy pointed to his bottom timer and did the "open hands" signal, saying to me that we'd hit our turn time. I signaled okay, checked my 'puter, and signaled, "four minutes," if I remember correctly. He signaled back, "okay." I'm sure that his thought process was, "Okay, dude... Your choice. I've got gas." Of course, that's speculation, but that probably wasn't far from the truth. We were centered around the upline, and about a minute later we began our ascent anyway... So the plan wasn't deviated far. Really, my only deviation from the plan was a hesitation of about a minute.
But then I began to ascend very slowly. Too slow, in fact. These two, in combination, were the real deviation from the plan.
My point is that before you tear into me or my buddy, remember that it's not like we dramatically blew off all of our plan... We only deviated slightly. Soooo... Tear into me slightly. Don't overdo it.
Of course!
Someone else wrote me offlist and told me, "If everyone on this board posted their mess ups, we wouldn't have enough bandwidth. You just happened to do that and now everyone is jumping on you. What's important here? You learn from your mistake."
I'm glad that what I did and the results can be shared. I learned from the experience... I hope that others do too.
Glad you see it as useful. I've enjoyed this thread, even though some have found it irresistable to flame.
Well, thank you, Nanook. I wasn't going to validate your sockpuppet existence with a response, but since you're so pleasant, I will: Thank you.
Actually, you're responding to something that someone else pointed out, so your response shouldn't be directed at me... But whatever.
I wasn't counting... Only noticing your newness here, as well as your abrasiveness (everyone else seemed to control their SeaJay bashing but you) and most of all, your plain violation of Scubaboard TOS. Then I noticed Uncle Pug's condoning of your violation, which I thought bizarre...
I'm flattered that you think my skills are "considerable." I feel like I've just begun. I don't consider them "considerable." I will state, however, that I am proud of what I do have, and am working on higher ones.
Nice. Very impressive flame. Sour, yet subdued and backhanded nicely.
Yessir. I will do that, sir. Of course, since the closest place that offers 'trox is nearly two hours away, should I also dive every dive on 'trox? Would that be to your liking, sir?
No. Specifically, I was referring to what saved my ***... My low SAC, which is something that I've worked on very hard for the past hundred dives. The flip side, though, is that yes, I have been trained on what to do if I exceed my NDL... 15 feet for eight minutes. Sure, it's not "the art of deco," but it can be argued that I did not exceed my training that dive, even by accident.
Ah, I see. Next time I'll call you first to check and make sure that you approve of my plan. Thanks for caring.
Actually, nowhere. I was taught not to EXCEED 30 fpm, though... So technically, 8 ft/min qualifies.
But that's not the point. I believe I was the one who told *you* that I rose too slow. Did you really feel the need to publicly repackage that and throw it back in my face?
Hm. Well, then you need to do some more diving. I'll address that with someone else's question below.
Right. That's exactly what I thought... And why I figured that leaving the bottom with 3 minutes of NDL would suffice. It didn't. Even if I'd had an ascent rate of 30 fpm, if I'd been at 100 feet with zero NDL left, I'd have earned a deco obligation by the time I hit "floor." That's the whole point to this thread.
You know, if this is the way people are treated when they share their experiences when they committed a mistake, then you might get your wish. I can take your abuse... But many people, I believe, are going to avoid posting their mistakes, which otherwise would be very beneficial for the whole diving community. Instead, you and your abuse encourage people to keep quiet about it all. Is that beneficial for the board? Do others then learn from those mistakes? Do the "real problems" get the opportunity to surface?
I don't care if some guy with three posts ever comes in and shoots his mouth off at me. I can take it. But for the rest of the posters here, I ask you to please be nice.
They would be much truer statements if they'd been preceeded with the phrase, "It's my opinion that..." For example, "It's my opinion that you need more training" would have been a truer statement than, "You need more training."
Heheheeee... Now I have a "megaproxy?" Cool! I always wanted one of those!
Yes. At least, I can say this with the Suunto computers. I have dived an Oceanic and a Dive Rite, too, but I never got to try that theory out, as both dives were relatively shallow.
But I can't imagine that other computers are any different.
Guys, this is really important... And what I learned last night when I was playing around with all of the software. It's the reason why I overstayed my NDL (and let's face it... That was the "emergency"... The whole thing. I didn't die. And thank you, Kayla, for the well-wishes).
I could have dove my plan. That would have prevented me from going into deco. Plain and simple, I should have done this and didn't.
But Spectre had a point when he said that I could have safely dived my computer too... But didn't. Here's why:
Let's say I'm at 100 feet, and looking to stay within my NDL's. Let me use the example of a diver using a 'puter so that I can better demonstrate the problem: Obviously, if I stay at 100 feet, the NDL minutes (the big ones on my Suunto product) would count down to zero. (And beyond.) However, if I ascend up to say, 20 feet, those NDL minutes begin to INCREASE. The point at which the NDL minutes remain the same is called the "floor." In physiological terms, a diver at the floor is neither ongassing nor offgassing. In other words, he is neither increasing nor decreasing the amount of dissolved nitrogen in his tissues. There's all sorts of interesting physiological things that happen at the floor, and it's got it's own characteristics... But I'll let someone better educated on that talk about that. :0
Okay... Back to the computer... The point is to never let your NDL minutes go past zero, right? So it makes sense that you'd want to turn your dive before it hits zero, right? Well, that's exactly what I did on this dive, and I still went into deco.
The reason is because I was still below the floor. According to my Suunto computer, floor on that dive was 35 feet. I left the bottom at three minutes of NDL left, but since I rose at only 8 feet per minute, those three minutes were used going from 98 feet to 74 feet... Still below the floor. Therefore I went into deco.
In my particular case, ascending at 30 feet per minute would have solved the problem. Spectre pointed that out... If I'd left 98 feet with 3 minutes of NDL left at 30 fpm, it would have taken me a tick over two minutes to reach floor - 35 feet. Thus, I'd have barely made it in time.
However, it's not difficult to figure other scenarios where you could get yourself in trouble... Like ending a 110' dive with two minutes of NDL left and such. Or a very slow ascent rate... Or whatever.
So no, you can't run it down to zero before leaving. And "leaving a minute or two" isn't even enough.
So what are solutions to the problem I had? Well, I could have simply stuck to my plan, which was a square profile, "dead reckoning" plan and would have resulted in less dive time, but would have been safe. I could have also ascended at a normal rate of ascent - 30 fpm. That would have *barely* solved my problem, but then I'd have not learned anything. The real solution - if I was going to dive a computer - was to leave enough NDL time to ascend to floor before zero.
Let me respond to each comment here, since they're really good ones. No, I'm not being sarcastic. I really mean that.
Fair enough, man. He didn't, though. Cool if that's what you would have done.
No. My buddy pointed to his bottom timer and did the "open hands" signal, saying to me that we'd hit our turn time. I signaled okay, checked my 'puter, and signaled, "four minutes," if I remember correctly. He signaled back, "okay." I'm sure that his thought process was, "Okay, dude... Your choice. I've got gas." Of course, that's speculation, but that probably wasn't far from the truth. We were centered around the upline, and about a minute later we began our ascent anyway... So the plan wasn't deviated far. Really, my only deviation from the plan was a hesitation of about a minute.
But then I began to ascend very slowly. Too slow, in fact. These two, in combination, were the real deviation from the plan.
My point is that before you tear into me or my buddy, remember that it's not like we dramatically blew off all of our plan... We only deviated slightly. Soooo... Tear into me slightly. Don't overdo it.
Of course!
Someone else wrote me offlist and told me, "If everyone on this board posted their mess ups, we wouldn't have enough bandwidth. You just happened to do that and now everyone is jumping on you. What's important here? You learn from your mistake."
I'm glad that what I did and the results can be shared. I learned from the experience... I hope that others do too.
Glad you see it as useful. I've enjoyed this thread, even though some have found it irresistable to flame.
Well, thank you, Nanook.
I wasn't going to validate your sockpuppet existence with a response, but since you're so pleasant, I will: Thank you.Actually, you're responding to something that someone else pointed out, so your response shouldn't be directed at me... But whatever.
I wasn't counting... Only noticing your newness here, as well as your abrasiveness (everyone else seemed to control their SeaJay bashing but you) and most of all, your plain violation of Scubaboard TOS. Then I noticed Uncle Pug's condoning of your violation, which I thought bizarre...
I'm flattered that you think my skills are "considerable." I feel like I've just begun. I don't consider them "considerable." I will state, however, that I am proud of what I do have, and am working on higher ones.
Nice. Very impressive flame. Sour, yet subdued and backhanded nicely.
Yessir. I will do that, sir. Of course, since the closest place that offers 'trox is nearly two hours away, should I also dive every dive on 'trox? Would that be to your liking, sir?
No. Specifically, I was referring to what saved my ***... My low SAC, which is something that I've worked on very hard for the past hundred dives. The flip side, though, is that yes, I have been trained on what to do if I exceed my NDL... 15 feet for eight minutes. Sure, it's not "the art of deco," but it can be argued that I did not exceed my training that dive, even by accident.
Ah, I see. Next time I'll call you first to check and make sure that you approve of my plan. Thanks for caring.
Actually, nowhere. I was taught not to EXCEED 30 fpm, though... So technically, 8 ft/min qualifies.
But that's not the point. I believe I was the one who told *you* that I rose too slow. Did you really feel the need to publicly repackage that and throw it back in my face?
Hm. Well, then you need to do some more diving. I'll address that with someone else's question below.
Right. That's exactly what I thought... And why I figured that leaving the bottom with 3 minutes of NDL would suffice. It didn't. Even if I'd had an ascent rate of 30 fpm, if I'd been at 100 feet with zero NDL left, I'd have earned a deco obligation by the time I hit "floor." That's the whole point to this thread.
You know, if this is the way people are treated when they share their experiences when they committed a mistake, then you might get your wish. I can take your abuse... But many people, I believe, are going to avoid posting their mistakes, which otherwise would be very beneficial for the whole diving community. Instead, you and your abuse encourage people to keep quiet about it all. Is that beneficial for the board? Do others then learn from those mistakes? Do the "real problems" get the opportunity to surface?
I don't care if some guy with three posts ever comes in and shoots his mouth off at me. I can take it. But for the rest of the posters here, I ask you to please be nice.
They would be much truer statements if they'd been preceeded with the phrase, "It's my opinion that..." For example, "It's my opinion that you need more training" would have been a truer statement than, "You need more training."
Heheheeee... Now I have a "megaproxy?" Cool! I always wanted one of those!
Yes. At least, I can say this with the Suunto computers. I have dived an Oceanic and a Dive Rite, too, but I never got to try that theory out, as both dives were relatively shallow.
But I can't imagine that other computers are any different.
Guys, this is really important... And what I learned last night when I was playing around with all of the software. It's the reason why I overstayed my NDL (and let's face it... That was the "emergency"... The whole thing. I didn't die. And thank you, Kayla, for the well-wishes).
I could have dove my plan. That would have prevented me from going into deco. Plain and simple, I should have done this and didn't.
But Spectre had a point when he said that I could have safely dived my computer too... But didn't. Here's why:
Let's say I'm at 100 feet, and looking to stay within my NDL's. Let me use the example of a diver using a 'puter so that I can better demonstrate the problem: Obviously, if I stay at 100 feet, the NDL minutes (the big ones on my Suunto product) would count down to zero. (And beyond.) However, if I ascend up to say, 20 feet, those NDL minutes begin to INCREASE. The point at which the NDL minutes remain the same is called the "floor." In physiological terms, a diver at the floor is neither ongassing nor offgassing. In other words, he is neither increasing nor decreasing the amount of dissolved nitrogen in his tissues. There's all sorts of interesting physiological things that happen at the floor, and it's got it's own characteristics... But I'll let someone better educated on that talk about that. :0
Okay... Back to the computer... The point is to never let your NDL minutes go past zero, right? So it makes sense that you'd want to turn your dive before it hits zero, right? Well, that's exactly what I did on this dive, and I still went into deco.
The reason is because I was still below the floor. According to my Suunto computer, floor on that dive was 35 feet. I left the bottom at three minutes of NDL left, but since I rose at only 8 feet per minute, those three minutes were used going from 98 feet to 74 feet... Still below the floor. Therefore I went into deco.
In my particular case, ascending at 30 feet per minute would have solved the problem. Spectre pointed that out... If I'd left 98 feet with 3 minutes of NDL left at 30 fpm, it would have taken me a tick over two minutes to reach floor - 35 feet. Thus, I'd have barely made it in time.
However, it's not difficult to figure other scenarios where you could get yourself in trouble... Like ending a 110' dive with two minutes of NDL left and such. Or a very slow ascent rate... Or whatever.
So no, you can't run it down to zero before leaving. And "leaving a minute or two" isn't even enough.
So what are solutions to the problem I had? Well, I could have simply stuck to my plan, which was a square profile, "dead reckoning" plan and would have resulted in less dive time, but would have been safe. I could have also ascended at a normal rate of ascent - 30 fpm. That would have *barely* solved my problem, but then I'd have not learned anything. The real solution - if I was going to dive a computer - was to leave enough NDL time to ascend to floor before zero.
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