Bottom Clip

[sethw]

This is what they're talking about. Mexican style. Keeps the tanks nice and tight and you can rotate in all directions without the tanks flopping all over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4rVj2t3-II&list=UUjsSs8Nf74v-Q7xXbeaNDaQ

I've already addressed the butt rail in another thread.

What he said, I would add two suggestions: first, since you are using the rubber d-rings, try sliding them forward slightly toward your front which brings the bottles closer to your body, obviously you will be doing this as the tank gets lighter. I use a fixed clip pretty far forward on my waist belt (Stealth harness) so when the tanks reach around 2200 psi or so I clip them off to that d-ring, "set-and forget". This keeps them in good trim as the bottoms start wanting to float up and holds them close to your thighs.

Second, if you notice in the Steve Martin video, the clips are not dead in line with the tank valves, they are rotated about 10 degrees forward, so when the bungie rotates the tank up and toward your body, it comes into some tension with the bottom clip which is now pulling inward and toward your naval.

Great place to work on your side mount rig!

-seth

 

[tbone1004]

blasphemous I know, but I like to use a ring on the bungees to assist with hooking in as well as clipping the tanks off. I clip the necks off to the O-ring, then will grab the bungee and flip it over the valve once I'm situated in the water. It works well and allows me a bit more freedom especially in cold water that I just don't have without it. Not to say it can't be done, but it certainly doesn't detract from it.



If you look at that picture, the bungee is actually tied into the loop, but if you just put it through once instead of twice *same way Edd rigs it on the old school kit through the quick link*, then the ring can slide around and it sucks the tanks up that much higher which is nice.

 

[Razorista]

blasphemous...

If you call it that yourself, perhaps I can dare to ask you :blinking: :

How did cavedivers come up with three (more actually) metal on metal connections in a single bungee? Two of those in a system.
I really do not want to anger anyone, you (and others here) just seem informed enough to answer that question.

I tried that system and liked it (on a Razor nonetheless - I copied the idea from Lamars videos, chokers and everything) but I was (nearly) the only sidemounter for miles at the time and could not defend it against DIR and no-DIR backmount teammates adequately.
It was much easier to just switch back to a 'cleaner' bungee system (I also never mastered to use it adequately on my own, as inexperienced as I was).

I consider myself lucky to have found out that the most simple bungee system is perfect for me personally, but I am still interested to know.

Oh, regarding the topic:
You mentioned it yourself at the beginning and described perfectly, tbone1004: for the thread openers problems 'tank-rotation' seems to be the obvious solution.

 

[tbone1004]

three metal to metal connections aren't a problem because there are still cutaways, i.e. the bungee if you need to cut it away. The clips aren't going anywhere or going to get stuck on anything, so you're fine there.

Quicklink is required when using the O-ring because you have to attach a fixed circle on the ring to the fixed circle on the bolt snap. Only reason for the quick link. They are there to keep the bungees clipped off to the chest D-rings so they don't go anywhere. The ring bungees are very good for rebreather sidemount bailout, backmount decompression cylinders, etc. especially in cold water where you have limited dexterity due to gloves.

I was using the choker system for a while, and it is still good, but the bottles hang lower than they do with loop bungees due to physics, not a problem for some types of diving, but for true sidemount it's an issue. If you are diving in areas like cave country where you may have to walk with the cylinders, or climbing out of boats, you need a rigid connection to the front of the rig so you can walk around without the bottles bouncing and ruining your bungee. You can do that with leashes clipped to the front D-rings, or I prefer to use stage rigging clipped to the rings, I am thinking about putting the chokers back on but not tightening them down, but haven't figured that out yet. The important bit is they are only holding the bottles in while you are walking around or at the surface. As soon as I flip horizontal, I grab the bungee, pop it over the valves and I'm good to go. My second stages are still tucked and in front until this point, when I finish my gear setup while I'm on descent. I find this easier because when you're horizontal everything is easier to work with.

I think the one piece bungee is stupid and dangerous for reasons already beat to death, but the bottles don't hang as high as they do with loop bungees which is what you want. Even in your profile picture on here the bottles are hanging much lower than they would with properly fit loop bungees. The O-ring allows the bungee to go 2 inches farther back than the quick link which is better for tank neck trim, especially on someone my size *52" chest*, so that's my justification. My setup is identical to Edd's Old-School Conversion kit except I added the O-ring to the bungees so I could have an easier time wearing gloves, as well as to push the bungee that much farther under my arm pit.

will post a picture when I get around to my gear

 

[Razorista]

three metal to metal connections aren't a problem because there are still cutaways, i.e. the bungee if you need to cut it away. The clips aren't going anywhere or going to get stuck on anything, so you're fine there.

I still always lost on that discussion because that would not free the tank from the ring attached to one side.
I actually could not even demonstrate the cutting when asked to, could not even 'find' the bungee at first and than could not extend it to a point that avoided damage to the drysuit.
The task my (backmount) instructor set was 'entangled and twisted no-mounted tank', did not work out well for me, I was pretty much left to his mercy to untie me.

...are very good for rebreather sidemount bailout, backmount decompression cylinders, etc. ...

Sounds reasonable to me. I would use loops there though, they work well with backplates.

you need a rigid connection to the front of the rig so you can walk around without the bottles bouncing and ruining your bungee.

I do not think so, I carry everything (80cft or rather heavy steel tanks) with a 6mm single bungee and while it wears out rather often, it's cheap to replace (a bungee might reach triple digit dives, but most don't anyway, regardless of overstretching them).
Most of the time with ideal valves I just slip the bungee over the rubber knob before entering the water and leave regulators and inflators tucked to the tanks.

As soon as I flip horizontal, I grab the bungee, pop it over the valves and I'm good to go.

likewise

My second stages are still tucked and in front until this point, when I finish my gear setup while I'm on descent. I find this easier because when you're horizontal everything is easier to work with.

likewise, but when with backmount divers I could also be standing on the platform before the jump with bungees and regulators slung and inflators connected, depends on overall mood and chaos.

I think the one piece bungee is stupid and dangerous for reasons already beat to death,

Yes and I concluded from probably the same information the same about the loop bungees.
I find them 'rather dangerous' and wouldn't use them again. I have to admit they work very well for their intended purpose though.

but the bottles don't hang as high as they do with loop bungees which is what you want.

Actually its one of the advantages of the single bungee that it compensates with one tank for movement of the other, so tanks can be worn a bit differently with the same stability.

To get the tanks further up I have to give up the principle of the valve/first-stage touching that D-ring position and wear them further back.
Since there simply is no restriction I could face as an open water diver I could not manage with the tanks in the position they are I prefer the improved accessibility.
I tried every restriction I can fit through no-mount with the tanks at the sides, the difference is marginal, except in width.

Even in your profile picture on here the bottles are hanging much lower than they would with properly fit loop bungees.

Hey, come on, those are 300Bar tanks, they are each about 5-8 pounds negative in that picture.
I could not dive those tanks myself with a loop bungee system adequately, it is one of it's drawbacks that a bungee-loop for neutral tanks will not take the weight of steel tanks well, or wear out your thumps before the dive even has started.

A good single bungee on the other hand is always tight enough to pull any tank into the 'Steve Martin picture position' http://sidemounting.com/Portals/0/L... Side Mount System Fitting - Steve Martin.JPG
It can be much tighter than comparable loops since when slipping the tanks in you can release slack from one side to use on the other one. So heavier tanks 'hang' the same way as light ones just not as powerfully pressed into you.

They also offer a more comfortable resting place for the elbows if you are bored out ouf your wits, as I was when that picture was taken - I did the next dive with that group with one fin for fun and I was at my 50th sidemount dive just over a hundred dives in total or something like that.

In that tank position my belt buckle webbing loop and inflator hoses still are the first objects to touch the ground, in my opinion that is acceptable and there is room for 'style questions' but none for improvement in effectiveness anymore.

 

[tbone1004]

go tell that to the sidemount guys in Marianna that dive PST 104's that are 15lbs negative when full and tuck them back just as well as Steve does with an AL80.

Bungee is cheap to replace but you clearly don't do much walking with the tanks and it is outright dangerous on a boat with 100+lbs of tanks bouncing around with you, it will throw you off balance.

If you couldn't find the loops, there was something wrong with them because they come straight back to the chest and they're around the valves, never any issue finding them.... That's a training/gear problem and was clearly not set up right. The rest of the discussion is very much off topic and the answers to your questions are elsewhere on this forum.

 

[Razorista]

... as Steve does with an AL80.

As I said it is the way Steve (B.) is wearing his tanks. I do not try to imitate anybody else. Same as Steve Martin did at that time.
I my opinion it is working adequately, but I do not have any good instructor nearby to check, so I am more self-conscious than you might think.

Bungee is cheap to replace but you clearly don't do much walking with the tanks and it is outright dangerous on a boat with 100+lbs of tanks bouncing around with you, it will throw you off balance.

At least I am the only one around not complaining about long walks at dive-sites.
Heaviest I can try around here are about 15lbs negative too, but as I cannot stand up with them attached on land at all, I do not and never will play in that league. I have to find other solutions there, no choice.

But I do not have my tanks bouncing around me. They are very awkward when trying to enter a zodiac, but walking, standing or sitting are no problem as long as I can take the weight up from a sitting or kneeling position.

If you couldn't find the loops,

Not loops, the bungee in a ring bungee system.
The bungee was so far back (and perhaps I had it to tight at the time, but I wanted to have the tanks higher) that I could not grab it even when pulling on the ring and could not separate it from the folds of the drysuit's armpit blindly.
Since the 'instructor' (he was actually not instructing at the time, never took any lessons with him) had twisted the attachment into the metal parts and entangled it in a line and girders to be unmovable I had to have him remove the tank from me before I could move again without fins digging into sediment - I should have done that without mask, but I could not even do it after putting it on again.
It might sound like he gave an impossible and not-realistic task, but I easily solved the same situation later with other bungee systems and learned to provoke similar situations for practice without assistance in more realistic scenarios and simply on the go during a fun-dive.

Loops I tired some time before and after that, but I could provoke failures there on my own in abundance and once forgot to repair a damaged loop before a dive, so I went back to a system where that mistake is easier to cope with.