Those both are from the WKPP which predates GUE and runs with, how should I say this, a bit more latitude than than GUE.
Roak
Breathing off the BC
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Roak
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
revolves around the problem of same ocean buddies (not just those who actively persue solo diving), it might be prudent to point out that the biggest problem in diving with a buddy you don't know is that both of you are expecting the other one to do the following. Two leaders in a buddy situation means two solo divers. Agree on a leader before the dive and then change for the next one. Then the task is to say side by side during the dive. The normal concept of following is to lag behind, but this will backfire if the follower is detained and the leader does not catch it fast enough. There are other good buddy skills that will enable you to keep your buddy within ten seconds of you at all times. Learn them and stay safe!
MHK
Guest
GUE as an organization doesn't teach or promote the use of your BC as a method to resolve OOA scenario's. We build in a whole set of protocols to resolve that issues prior to it happening, but prudence dictates that we also teach proper air shares just in case..
That being said, we are well aware of the ability to use your BC as an air source . However to be in that situation you are in one huge world of sh*t.. Accordingly, and I can't speak for every GUE instructor because this isn't part of the curriculm so I suspect every instructor has his/her own thoughts on how, or if, to introduce the subject.. More often then not in the DIR-F classes we avoid any discussion of this, however I may have discussed it in one or two classes, I honestly don't remember. Sometimes students ask questions based upon the most recent thread before the class so it's possible someone has asked about this in class.
In the tech classes we've discussed it, again beyond the scope of the curriculm.. As for the cave classes, I have limited experiences in that regard other then my own cave1 & cave 2 class and I couldn't say one way or another if Tamara mentioned this during either class..
My personal view on the subject is that I hope I'm never ever in a position where I need to rely on my BC for air, however just as a precaution we practice it all the time.. The tendancy is too lose a fair amount of buoyancy the first couple of times you practice it, but after a few times you get the hang of it.. I agree with Popeye in several aspects. First you do not "re"-breath the air and cycle it through your BC, you exhale into the water. More importantly, I think Popeye said " it's a helluva lot better then breathing water" and I agree with that. But again I want to severly disclaim here and remind everyone that to be in this position most, if not all, of what you were trained to do in your GUE classes have been ignored or violated...
Later
That being said, we are well aware of the ability to use your BC as an air source . However to be in that situation you are in one huge world of sh*t.. Accordingly, and I can't speak for every GUE instructor because this isn't part of the curriculm so I suspect every instructor has his/her own thoughts on how, or if, to introduce the subject.. More often then not in the DIR-F classes we avoid any discussion of this, however I may have discussed it in one or two classes, I honestly don't remember. Sometimes students ask questions based upon the most recent thread before the class so it's possible someone has asked about this in class.
In the tech classes we've discussed it, again beyond the scope of the curriculm.. As for the cave classes, I have limited experiences in that regard other then my own cave1 & cave 2 class and I couldn't say one way or another if Tamara mentioned this during either class..
My personal view on the subject is that I hope I'm never ever in a position where I need to rely on my BC for air, however just as a precaution we practice it all the time.. The tendancy is too lose a fair amount of buoyancy the first couple of times you practice it, but after a few times you get the hang of it.. I agree with Popeye in several aspects. First you do not "re"-breath the air and cycle it through your BC, you exhale into the water. More importantly, I think Popeye said " it's a helluva lot better then breathing water" and I agree with that. But again I want to severly disclaim here and remind everyone that to be in this position most, if not all, of what you were trained to do in your GUE classes have been ignored or violated...
Later
fins wake
Guest
The chance of hypercapnia is not theoretical. It's a physiological certainty, if you do it long enough. Problem is, how long is a piece of string?
No, if you go back and read the passage again, you'll find I say that you'll be breathing progressively smaller fractions of oxygen. Your metabolism accounts for the missing moles. Is this really such a difficult concept?
This I grant, if you're diving enriched air and feeding the BCD off the same source. Won't do anything for the elevated ppCO2's which you are poo-pooing, though.
Again, minus the O2 you're metabolizing and again, you seem to think the air you rebreathe is pristine. It's not.
Ah, a first change of tack! However, it is not easily vented, this procedure in fact needs tons of practice.
Are we? I thought the whole thread was about getting up from 75 feet.
Then why are you even participating in this thread? It makes a lot of sense to me. If one has to use this method at all, which most newbie divers shouldn't.
Not really. Once you're on an ESA in a real emergency you will be trying to reach the surface ASAP going "aaaaa" ...
Gosh, this is difficult, isn't it? The air emanating from your lungs is not pristine! If you don't want to waste it, get a closed-circuit rebreather with a proper scrubber!
You really will have to specify why it is delayed.
It's not the same thing, y'know, using your bag as a rebreather or venting the gas into the water. This is OW theory, BTW.
No, I disagreed with Rick already before my last post, but I have no need to pick a fight with the board's regulators. NetDoc's points were aimed at the newbie diver being given the idea that somehow the BCD is an emergency gas supply to be used whenever needed. Your callous disregard for hypercapnia (and hypoxia) is worrying.
So you've read - or understood - nothing of what people are talking about? Lack of substance? Dear me ...
Weird choice. Actually there are others, and they've been mentioned. Please understand that elevated CO2 is no laughing matter.
You may well end up with more than a headache ...
Yes, surfacing the way you describe is different from any ESA. Ever wondered why submariners don't learn your technique? If it actually worked, it'd be a lot easier.
I don't! I disapprove of solo diving, although I can see its use for certain forms of wreck or cave exploration. I'm absolutely against solo diving for OW newbies. There is no ambiguity here. And if I go on, somebody will split this thread, right? :boom:
Read that sentence again. Then again. Then a third time. It is the best example of an oxymoron I've seen for a long time ...
fins wake
Guest
again, so I'll keep it brief:
Get your facts right! :grrr: :wazzup:
Then you do not agree with Popeye. His line is
This has been his line all along.
Get your facts right! :grrr: :wazzup:
Nobody has disagreed with this, and any cursory read-through of this thread would have shown that clearly. However, there seems to be some sitting-on-the-fence here, a lot of caveats on
Right, right, right ... :doh!:
All the time? Methinks this might be ... personal preference BCD breathing.
Popeye
Contributor
Why would anyone want to breathe water...
when FRESH air is a mere 75 ft away???
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally irrelevant when your alternative is breathing water.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even at 60 fpm you would be on the surface in 75 secs. Even with partially filled lungs, you would have more than enough air and would arrive way before hypoxia could set in. This would apply mostly to in-attentive solo divers or to in-attentive divers who also lost track of their buddy. Obviously these types of divers wouldn't make good candidates for "Diver of the Year".
Passing judgment on diving situations that you're unfamiliar with shows you to be the arrogant buffoon that you are.
Also, tailoring hypothetical situations to fit your solutions, which I've repeatedly pointed out, is a waiting disaster.
The most despicable part of your logic is that you'll shame people into not practicing OOA self rescue because schmucks like you will look down on them as poorly trained divers.
When in fact, they're training themselves better than you do.
The best avenue of escape for a solo, entangled, OOA diver would be to ditch their BC and weights and find the surface ASAP (still imitating superman and saying "n" as you ascend). To argue that you would be able to untangle yourself with the few precious seconds afforded by the air in your BC, using one hand to operate the inflator valve and the other to free yourself borders on fantasy. I am sure that Mike Nelson could accomplish such a feat, but as I am yet to his level of expertise, I would ditch and go. OF course, should you endeavor to demonstrate this, I would be willing to bring some spare air down for you to prolong the agony. It would be my guess that you would happily accept my octo in short order.
You would get caught in a fishing line, and be unable to free yourself.
Wow.
-Then-, you'd ditch your gear, and head for the top.
Hope you don't get hung again, dude, with no gear, and no air.
It amazes me that you would criticize other's training with a response like this.
Have you ever had any formal scuba training?
And I'll never need any assistance from you underwater.
You're the one that can't dive without a buddy to watch you.
We could arrange this experiment, do you have any dive buds in the Huntsville or Nashville area?
I mean, that would actually dive with you?
Wanna put some money where your mouth is?
Payable to DAN?
" I would be willing to bring some spare air down for you to prolong the agony."
That you would consider yourself a decent man for posting this is incredulous, but I doubt you have the dignity to be ashamed.
Especially when you were whining earlier about being accused of not helping divers in trouble.
There is nothing lower in the entire scuba world than wishing harm on another diver, and your words are evidence of your mental state.
If you weren't a regulator, the other regulators would address this forthwith.
I've addressed the "regulated board" issue in another thread, and this is a prime example of it.
FWIW, Pops your continued use of "aegis" borders on the inane. Please stop! Its not so much that you are stretching the definition as you are distending it beyond all recognition. An aegis is the symbol or "control" (as in authority) under which you operate. That symbol can be a name, slogan, coat of arms (shield), a person or whatever. I teach Scuba under the aegis of NAUI. My aegis on the board and in business is NetDoc. To think that your "aegis" is bladder breathing is pushing it at best. Although the graphics would be sorta cool! I only post it here as you have indicated that you would like ALL correspondence between us to be in the public forum. It is as you wish.
Ah, down to grammar correction. The last bastion of the utterly defeated. Your Swedish buddy, who's doing his best to defend you, purports himself to be an author and journalist, seemed ok with it's usage. To the point of apologizing for his correction. But since you're smarter than all other "lesser" divers, I'm sure you're smarter than he is, too.
As far as "inane" goes, earlier this very day, you PMd this:
"Still going with the ad hominid attacks!"
And:
"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Hey... when I have a personal issue with someone (like you at the moment) I don't waste anybody else's valuable time with it. Personal crap belongs in PMs... and heck, I don't want to embarrass you in public any further."
So I fail to see why the "ad hominid" attacks continue, except as an example of your fragile ego, and that your written word can't be trusted.
And further example of your poor qualification as a moderator.
when FRESH air is a mere 75 ft away???
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally irrelevant when your alternative is breathing water.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even at 60 fpm you would be on the surface in 75 secs. Even with partially filled lungs, you would have more than enough air and would arrive way before hypoxia could set in. This would apply mostly to in-attentive solo divers or to in-attentive divers who also lost track of their buddy. Obviously these types of divers wouldn't make good candidates for "Diver of the Year".
Passing judgment on diving situations that you're unfamiliar with shows you to be the arrogant buffoon that you are.
Also, tailoring hypothetical situations to fit your solutions, which I've repeatedly pointed out, is a waiting disaster.
The most despicable part of your logic is that you'll shame people into not practicing OOA self rescue because schmucks like you will look down on them as poorly trained divers.
When in fact, they're training themselves better than you do.
The best avenue of escape for a solo, entangled, OOA diver would be to ditch their BC and weights and find the surface ASAP (still imitating superman and saying "n" as you ascend). To argue that you would be able to untangle yourself with the few precious seconds afforded by the air in your BC, using one hand to operate the inflator valve and the other to free yourself borders on fantasy. I am sure that Mike Nelson could accomplish such a feat, but as I am yet to his level of expertise, I would ditch and go. OF course, should you endeavor to demonstrate this, I would be willing to bring some spare air down for you to prolong the agony. It would be my guess that you would happily accept my octo in short order.
You would get caught in a fishing line, and be unable to free yourself.
Wow.
-Then-, you'd ditch your gear, and head for the top.
Hope you don't get hung again, dude, with no gear, and no air.
It amazes me that you would criticize other's training with a response like this.
Have you ever had any formal scuba training?
And I'll never need any assistance from you underwater.
You're the one that can't dive without a buddy to watch you.
We could arrange this experiment, do you have any dive buds in the Huntsville or Nashville area?
I mean, that would actually dive with you?
Wanna put some money where your mouth is?
Payable to DAN?
" I would be willing to bring some spare air down for you to prolong the agony."
That you would consider yourself a decent man for posting this is incredulous, but I doubt you have the dignity to be ashamed.
Especially when you were whining earlier about being accused of not helping divers in trouble.
There is nothing lower in the entire scuba world than wishing harm on another diver, and your words are evidence of your mental state.
If you weren't a regulator, the other regulators would address this forthwith.
I've addressed the "regulated board" issue in another thread, and this is a prime example of it.
FWIW, Pops your continued use of "aegis" borders on the inane. Please stop! Its not so much that you are stretching the definition as you are distending it beyond all recognition. An aegis is the symbol or "control" (as in authority) under which you operate. That symbol can be a name, slogan, coat of arms (shield), a person or whatever. I teach Scuba under the aegis of NAUI. My aegis on the board and in business is NetDoc. To think that your "aegis" is bladder breathing is pushing it at best. Although the graphics would be sorta cool! I only post it here as you have indicated that you would like ALL correspondence between us to be in the public forum. It is as you wish.
Ah, down to grammar correction. The last bastion of the utterly defeated. Your Swedish buddy, who's doing his best to defend you, purports himself to be an author and journalist, seemed ok with it's usage. To the point of apologizing for his correction. But since you're smarter than all other "lesser" divers, I'm sure you're smarter than he is, too.
As far as "inane" goes, earlier this very day, you PMd this:
"Still going with the ad hominid attacks!"
And:
"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Hey... when I have a personal issue with someone (like you at the moment) I don't waste anybody else's valuable time with it. Personal crap belongs in PMs... and heck, I don't want to embarrass you in public any further."
So I fail to see why the "ad hominid" attacks continue, except as an example of your fragile ego, and that your written word can't be trusted.
And further example of your poor qualification as a moderator.
You appear to be quoting without attribution, what's the source of this, because I couldn't disagree more.
The first step in evaluating an out-of-air situation, or even a suspected one, is to get on your buddy's gas. Then you have all the time in the world to sort things out. Trying to figure out what's going wrong without being able to breathe is wasting valuable time, which may be the difference between life and death.
Yes, good question. Personally I feel the whole concept of "You can always flee to the surface" taught by the mainstream agencies encourages the same-time-same-ocean buddy system that's evident in most divers.
Roak
Popeye
Contributor
Sounds really good to me, but:
"Even at 60 fpm you would be on the surface in 75 secs. Even with partially filled lungs, you would have more than enough air and would arrive way before hypoxia could set in."
-NetDoc.
Dr. Paul said that you got 5 minutes.
Hmmmmmmmmm.
blacknet
Contributor
N.O.A.A. Diving Manual, 4th edition,
ISBN: 0-941332-70-5
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 98-96829
Page 21-4 section 21.3
Ed
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
In a PM to me you said...
I took your request to heart and now you slam me for it??? You can't have it both ways. You want it in PM or out here? It's your choice...
BTW, I take it that you are certified to teach Scuba then? If so with what agency. I had a recent acquaintance tell me in a PM that
BTW #2, which of the nine points of my method for an ESA did you disagree with? I seem to remember you indicating that you actually agreed with them but they were just "off topic". Which parts did you find dangerous? Which were in error? I have answered many of your questions, please return the favor and answer at least some of mine.
This was in response to me requesting that this personal "crap" be handled off of the forum.
I took your request to heart and now you slam me for it??? You can't have it both ways. You want it in PM or out here? It's your choice...
Sorry... that would be name calling. You're good at that, and I haven't called you one name on the public forum... other than "Pops".
No, you are the one criticizing me here. I merely indicated in great detail just how I would handle these situations and why. It appears that you are quite angry with me for NOT utilizing your bladder breathing technique in these scenarios. You take great care at twisting my words to try and mean something they aren't. I won't do the same with you. It's just plain petty.
BTW, I take it that you are certified to teach Scuba then? If so with what agency. I had a recent acquaintance tell me in a PM that
I believe that was you, wasn't it? So. please tell us who you are qualified to teach about ESAs and through what agency. I don't think that I saw that certification on your profile.
BTW #2, which of the nine points of my method for an ESA did you disagree with? I seem to remember you indicating that you actually agreed with them but they were just "off topic". Which parts did you find dangerous? Which were in error? I have answered many of your questions, please return the favor and answer at least some of mine.
I do believe that I said I would be offering you my octo... and that you would be accepting it. Would never want you to try that without backup there. But there you go, twisting my words AGAIN. You know, some politicians could use a spin doctor with your abilities. It probably even pays more than being a mechanic.
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