"Bungeed wings of death" Why ??

[Scubaroo]

Jonathan once bubbled...


Just curious if the wing was punctured and you did not have a redundant bladder - what would be the point of trying to orally inflate the wing? What am I missing?

Jonathan

The story went that the guy was overweighted and couldn't swim up to the surface without some additional buoyancy. I didn't hear anye specifics on whether the guy was diving doubles, steels, dropped his weights, etc. Without some lift in his wing, he was stuck on the bottom.

 

[Jonathan]

but bungee or no bungee how are you going to do that with a hole in the wing?

Also to O-rings point - my redundant bladder is not connected. If I should need to do so then I will be calling the dive and use my dry suit hose, after all I won't be needing to add air to my dry suit on my ascent and I will use the wing for buoyancy control on any stops I need to do.

Jonathan

 

[O-ring]

but bungee or no bungee how are you going to do that with a hole in the wing?

With bungee, if the hole is, say, in the middle of the bladder, but bungees will constrict the wing forcing air out the hole...even if the air was above the hole to begin with. With a normal wing, you do not have this phenomenon and can ascend (vertically if need be to keep the air pocket above the tear) normally.

my redundant bladder is not connected.

Then how is this better than using a drysuit in the first place. You are losing redundancy by not connecting it (see the last post) and then using your drysuit anyway. Why convolute things by having two bladders then?

Not to mention the rule #6 violation..that godawful red one with the bungees on it looks horrible (see pic).

 

[AquaTec]

Oring good solid reasoning you have provided.

Some responces to your concrens

One of the biggest issues with double wings is that of being in the middle of another minor problem/tasks, having one of the two inflators runaway

Can you imagine dealing with a small problem and having to deploy a reel and bag. just hit the inflator button dude.
now as for the drysuit, this would do the same thing. but i think you might cause other problems by using the drysuite.

not being able to determine which one it is. Some divers attempt to protect from this by only having one wing inflate hose and they plan to move the hose to the redundant inflator in the event of a problem - they have just compromised their so called required redundancy in that they now are not protecting from a hose blow or a first stage failure

The way you protect from a run away inflator on your reserve bladder is to have the hose that would normaly be attached to it disconected, I have mine dicoed and kept in place with an intertube. you just connect and inflate. the other problem you mention are all avoided.
I agree that some people doi it this way in order to eliminate that extra hose. I see it as a trade off

In addition any air in that redundant wing - which was probably not noticed at the beginning of the dive when heavy, will affect the ascent as it expands - leaving the diver to drive a dry suit deflate and a wing deflate and then another wing deflate, whilst also possibly winding in a reel for the ascent - way too many hands.

This is all a result of poor diving practices, checking you gear prior to a dive will prevent many different problems such as this one

The bungees will exert pressure against the inflation and cause the over pressure valve to dump well below what the ambient pressure would.

The overpressure valve will not activate unless you have over inflated the bladder.....this doesn't make since to me.

And besides, why have them if they aren't any better than wings without them? What's the point...think minimalism

It isn't that they are any better without them, they are better with the bungees yet not any worse without them. meaning with the bungees it tucks the bladder neatly in behind your shoulders. it prevents air shifting, and provides proper air distribution in any posission you are in. no it doesn't work that great if all your stage bottles are on one side, because when you tilt your body to let the air in your bladder help stablize you, the air will remain equaly distributed. so you will need to properly balance your stage bottles if you use bungeed wings

 

[O-ring]

But I still say that this argument:

With bungee, if the hole is, say, in the middle of the bladder, but bungees will constrict the wing forcing air out the hole...even if the air was above the hole to begin with. With a normal wing, you do not have this phenomenon and can ascend (vertically if need be to keep the air pocket above the tear) normally.

Holds up in the face of this information you so handily provided:

it prevents air shifting, and provides proper air distribution in any posission you are in. no it doesn't work that great if all your stage bottles are on one side, because when you tilt your body to let the air in your bladder help stablize you, the air will remain equaly distributed.

I think the bungees would force more air out of the wing in the event of a tear than the non-bungee wings. This would be even worse in a doubles rig since (with a non-bungee wing) I could tilt my body to one side (the side with the tear) and still put a significant amount of gas in my wing to achieve neutrality by filling the non-punctured side. Is that why they are making redundant bladders? Sounds like a band-aid solution to a design problem they perpetuated...

 

[AquaTec]

O-ring once bubbled...
I think the bungees would force more air out of the wing in the event of a tear than the non-bungee wings. This would be even worse in a doubles rig since (with a non-bungee wing) I could tilt my body to one side (the side with the tear) and still put a significant amount of gas in my wing to achieve neutrality by filling the non-punctured side. Is that why they are making redundant bladders? Sounds like a band-aid solution to a design problem they perpetuated...

true the bungees would force it out more than the non bungeed.
In a doubles rig you simple inflate the second bladder...problem dealt with, and body posission is not an issue.

as for tilting your body, what happens when you are in a wreck and you need to squeeze through a shaft or stairwell and a flat profile will not work, or any profile that requires you to reposission your body to get out.

I don't understand the band aid remark. the double bladder lets you disregard the damaged one and then continue the dive in the same manner without having to worry about posission, say in a cave, wreck, etc. [when i say continue, i mean that you would start your exit]

 

[Jonathan]

point conceeded - but then I realise that I wouldn't be aware of the punctured bladded until I surfaced as I use my dry suit for buoyancy. Then provided it wasn't a bloody big puncture that went through both bladders I could relax in comfort rather than be michelin man!

my wings are the cool black colour! Well it's the only colour they come in and I think they look cool.

Jonathan

 

[Jonathan]

just realised what I said - I hope that I would be aware if I ran into something and punctured the wing.....

 

[The Chairman]

and while SOME air did escape, I was able to maintain neutral buoyancy just fine! Did I go through more air to maintain it, well sure! But I was never in danger of not having enough lift to maintain neutrality. It was at least a 1/4" hole too... Now some would say (who weren't even there) that I had an "uncontrolled deflation"... Nope, not at all! In fact the only way that I KNEW that I was punctured was another diver pointing it out to me. I used the other bladder on my next dive and of course, it worked great, though it took getting used to actually using that side! As others mentioned, when I dive with my dual bladder wing, I leave the secondary side unplugged! Takes but a moment to plug her in! So, if my primary inflator OR bladder fails I have a back up on both!

The use of the term "bungeed wings of death" is a scare tactic used by some to advance their agenda of ultra-conformity. Other terms (such as stroke) are also useful for creating an atmosphere of blind obedience to a particular regimen. Those who rely on reasoning (not emotion) for their gear configuration rarely resort to these names! Remember, it is best to separate between fact and theory (or fiction). Look for independent tests or real experiences before you denigrate something as unsafe. The other "theory" about the bungees being a snag hazard is just as bogus as the theories about runaway deflation or runaway inflation or the acute barotrauma you will incur if you inflate them orally. You don't have to like them, and that’s OK... but to deem something as unsafe with this kind of safety record does not seem rational.

 

[The Chairman]

my wings are red... my students can pick me out of the crowd that way! At depth they might look grey, but so what... better than just blending in with the crowd!