Can DMs take cameras on the dives they are leading?

[Rhodesaz]

Zen Diving, Inc.,
I failed to explain my last comment clearly. Let me clarify.
Yes I (we) are comfortable, certified AOW divers and understand our limits. No, I do not need the DM to change tanks, hold my hair, spit in or on my mask, etc. What I expect a DM to provide is safety. If he/she can point out interesting things also, then that's even better. But safety for all members of the group is priority.
Second, the "thumbed dive" comment was due to an inattentive DM on a previous dive. I refused to dive with him a second time. So I thumbed the dive because I felt my safety, and the group, was at risk.
I want a paid DM on a dive to visibly make eye contact with me occasionally. I do not care that he/she ask "how much air do I have?" or "Am I OK?". What this tells me is that the DM is paying attention to the whole group.
The dive was in Cozumel, July 2012. Visibility was at least 100 feet. There were 6 divers plus the DM. My buddy and I normally pull drag. About 3/4 of the way through a shallow dive, 4 of us noticed the DM and the other 2 divers were gone or not in sight. The 4 of us continued drifting together for several minutes (looking like mad for air bubbles) when I noticed bubbles over a reef about 150 feet ahead of us. As the 4 of us swam toward the bubbles we determined it was our DM and the 2 other group members. I would say between 5 to 10 minutes had passed. Everybody was safe but the DM never noticed that 4 of us had "disappeared" from his group.
I refused to dive with him as a DM several days later.

 

[tomfcrist]

Was he the dive leader or the dive guide? It is your own responsibility to ensure your safety, so to me that point is mute. Honestly this scenario is why I refuse to dive in a large group setting unless I'm teaching. It seems to me that the 4 of you that "found" the DM and 2 other divers failed to keep up on what sounds to me like a drift dive. Guided dives in a large group setting involves follow the leader, which obviously wasn't done. If it was in fact s drift dive, there is no way the DM could have back tracked to you without compromising the part of the group that hadn't failed to keep up. So unless it was expressly agreed that if any component of the group got separated that the whole group would thumb the dive, I see no wrongdoing on the part of the DM, but over sensitivity by you. Just my opinion of course, not meant as an attack on you whatsoever. Just want you to see the scenario from a different perspective.

 

[Paulmal]

According to the PADI text you can supervise a dive from the surface, so the DM does not have to be in the water to do their job.

 

[danvolker]

Zen Diving, Inc.,
I failed to explain my last comment clearly. Let me clarify.
Yes I (we) are comfortable, certified AOW divers and understand our limits. No, I do not need the DM to change tanks, hold my hair, spit in or on my mask, etc. What I expect a DM to provide is safety. If he/she can point out interesting things also, then that's even better. But safety for all members of the group is priority.
Second, the "thumbed dive" comment was due to an inattentive DM on a previous dive. I refused to dive with him a second time. So I thumbed the dive because I felt my safety, and the group, was at risk.
I want a paid DM on a dive to visibly make eye contact with me occasionally. I do not care that he/she ask "how much air do I have?" or "Am I OK?". What this tells me is that the DM is paying attention to the whole group.
The dive was in Cozumel, July 2012. Visibility was at least 100 feet. There were 6 divers plus the DM. My buddy and I normally pull drag. About 3/4 of the way through a shallow dive, 4 of us noticed the DM and the other 2 divers were gone or not in sight. The 4 of us continued drifting together for several minutes (looking like mad for air bubbles) when I noticed bubbles over a reef about 150 feet ahead of us. As the 4 of us swam toward the bubbles we determined it was our DM and the 2 other group members. I would say between 5 to 10 minutes had passed. Everybody was safe but the DM never noticed that 4 of us had "disappeared" from his group.
I refused to dive with him as a DM several days later.

The whole key to your issue is your comment " I want a paid DM on a dive to visibly make eye contact with me occasionally."
If this was understood by the DM, prior to this dive, then he was very wrong in getting beyond visual contact with you.
Much of this DM behavior is Destination Specific.....In Palm Beach, while you can have a divemaster do this if requested, it is not the norm....but most boats do have one or more DM's in the crew, and on many boats there would be no extra charge--but you would need to be clear to them that you would want them to be WITH YOU the entire dive....Usually in Palm Beach, the DM is just making sure no one misses the shipwreck, or he/she is there to point out key features on a reef for any diver that cares to see....many divers just ignore the DM's the entire dive.
Where I have seen divers ask for specific contact throughout the dive, I have never heard of a problem on a Palm Beach boat, where the diver did not get the attention they wanted....but again, I think much of this is about the discussion between Diver and DM prior to jumping in to the water

 

[Rhodesaz]

Yes, it was a drift dive.

I respectfully disagree with you. The DM should have stopped and held in place (for a minute or two), the 2 divers until the other 4 caught up. If the DM had to respond to a safety issue the "group" would have held in place until the DM continued the dive.

Hopefully you will agree drift dives raises safety concerns that non drift dives do not have. Such as drifting out to sea. If a safety concern occurred such as a slipping tank and my buddy stopped to assist me for several minutes. When we continued the dive but the group or DM was not present we would have had to "thumb" the dive. This also makes it harder on the boat captain. Because instead of one group, he/she has divers all over the place. On non drift dives, stopping is not a problem.

YES, my safety and that of my buddy are my responsibility, (as my buddy's) which I do not take lightly.
On the boat, this DM gave the briefing, went over the hand signals and explained the depth and length of the dive. Explained the drift dive and to never dive in front of them. Therefore, he/she was the DM not a dive guide.

We may have to agree to disagree, but I believe that DM was wrong for loosing sight of 4 of his divers for several minutes.

---------- Post Merged at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:45 AM ----------

Danvolker,
I completely agree it may be location specific.
During the Palm Beach briefing, is this discussed?

I have dived in non drift locations where the DM gives a location briefing and then says, I'm going this way, if you want to follow me OK. If not OK. Then it is understood, I do not have a DM with me on this dive.

---------- Post Merged at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:45 AM ----------

I would like to add I have the utmost respect for DM's, DI's and others of this field.
While I only have 150 dives, I still have so much to learn. But what I have learned, is to not dive if I feel uncomfortable about anything. So I never dive beyond my comfort zone.

All the DM's and DI's I have had contact with, LOVE what they are doing and tend to want to share that love. As a new diver trying to learn what he can, I truly appreciate them.

I tend to enjoy the DM's and DI's that many years of experience.

 

[danvolker]

Hopefully you will agree drift dives raises safety concerns that non drift dives do not have. Such as drifting out to sea. If a safety concern occurred such as a slipping tank and my buddy stopped to assist me for several minutes. When we continued the dive but the group or DM was not present we would have had to "thumb" the dive. This also makes it harder on the boat captain. Because instead of one group, he/she has divers all over the place. On non drift dives, stopping is not a problem.

YES, my safety and that of my buddy are my responsibility, (as my buddy's) which I do not take lightly.
On the boat, this DM gave the briefing, went over the hand signals and explained the depth and length of the dive. Explained the drift dive and to never dive in front of them. Therefore, he/she was the DM not a dive guide.

We may have to agree to disagree, but I believe that DM was wrong for loosing sight of 4 of his divers for several minutes.

---------- Post Merged at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:45 AM ----------

Danvolker,
I completely agree it may be location specific.
During the Palm Beach briefing, is this discussed?

I have dived in non drift locations where the DM gives a location briefing and then says, I'm going this way, if you want to follow me OK. If not OK. Then it is understood, I do not have a DM with me on this dive.

---------- Post Merged at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:45 AM ----------

Drift Diving can actually be safer/easier than anchor diving....because the drift runs all divers in the same direction, it is quite easy for a captain to be able to guage where most divers will be, most of the time...In anchor diving, the divers could spread out in 360 degrees, and be any distance away.
On a Drift Diving operation, some divers will swim faster than others, but there will be a "vector" for the Captain to concern himself with, and this makes things pretty easy when it comes to locating a diver ( not to mention, if you want to go off on your own, you tow your own flag or float for the boat to follow).

I really can't imagine why the DM said NOT to be in front of him....that would be the position where he could watch you the most effectively. If all he was doing is showing you where to dive, then it would make some sense for everyone to stay behind him...but he would be acting as a dive guide if doing this, not as a DM.

In Palm Beach, there is a very thorough briefing, and typically you will have it spelled out that the Crew member or DM in the water with you, is there as a tour guide...not as an instructor. This is because the majority of divers diving Palm Beach prefer this type of "guide if desired" service, and very few will put up with being told to follow a DM's idea of what a dive should be like.

For the new divers, Palm Beach boats have more DM's than they know what to do with , so there is no problem getting you what you want, but you would need to make this clear --and preferably during the phone call to book.

 

[EastCoastWreckDiver]

I think bringing any camera with you while you are leading a dive is not a good idea. If your group wishes to have a video why not hire a DM or other certified assistant to bring a camera to get footage? If I am leading a dive the only thing I want to have on my mind is the others having a good time and safety.

 

[Rogersea]

Hello:

I am just wondering if there is anything in the PADI, SSI or NAUI guidelines that prevents dive masters from taking cameras on the dives they are leading? I understand that instructors are not permitted to carry cameras on training dives but what about Divemasters who are leading certified divers?

Thanks.

No, there is no prohibition on carrying a camera (that I have ever seen)..

My DM often carries a camera, mostly to take photos of divers she is leading or to capture a shot of some peculiar UW creature to share with group post dive. The customers are usually very appreciative of this. The Camera is just a tool that she uses to help ensure the guests enjoy their dive.


Cheers,
Roger

 

[Jim Lapenta]

If a DM is expected to provide safety then each buddy pair should hire their own for that purpose. Expecting a DM to keep track of 6-8 divers of varying skill and ability on a drift dive is unreasonable, rude, and inconsiderate. Expecting them to do that is expecting them to have 3-4 sets of eyes in various locations on their head. He could get tied up with one diver and someone else have a problem that the DM cannot possibly help with and by this definition would get the blame for something he/she had no control over.

That is just plain wrong. If a diver and their buddy cannot handle most situations that come up and feel a DM is needed to stay safe, again, they have no business on that dive.

 

[tomfcrist]

What he said^^^^^^