Concerns About Length of Open Water Course

[austrooper]

All these conservations are very enlightening, although I dont believe most have addressed my initial question. Should OW courses be allowed to be taught in 2 days?

 

[Mr. Black]

All these conservations are very enlightening, although I dont believe most have addressed my initial question. Should OW courses be allowed to be taught in 2 days?

As others said earlier in this thread:

Yes, OW courses should be ALLOWED to be taught in two days.

Some students have the theory in the bag when they show up and are totally proficient in the water.

Regulation that would force everyone across the board to spend an extra x days on the course would not be desirable.

But should your shop (Victorian diving conditions) mandate that you get everyone through the course in two days by default?

In an ideal world, no. But they almost all do.

The instructors really are in the worst position here.

Agencies wash their hands clean. After all, an instructor who followed established standards signed off on a cert.

The shop is in the clear because an instructor who followed agency standards signed off on a cert.

There is an onus on the diver to dive to conditions and seek additional training and have awesome buddy skills.

Sadly most of that rarely happens in the tourist diving hotspots but these are the areas that probably send the most profit to the agencies.

Unless the industry as a whole agree to do something about this, commercial realities will keep courses short and compact and instructors who don't toe the party line get replaced with others who will shut up and churn cert$.

I see some of the small islands in Thailand have dozens of dive shops in a small area competing for business. They all do open water in 2-3 days at under 350 USD.

If I opened a shop there tomorrow and tried to do things properly it would have to take 3-4 days and 600+ dollars to get OW because we'd do skills neutral and in proper trim and the caliber of instructors i would need and seek would need to get quality pay.

Back to reality: I would be very lonely in my little shop and go out of business within 3 months. Recreational diving is being promoted as a fun activity and the risks keep being whitewashed.

Accordingly the entry level (OW) customer has no idea what to look for in choosing an instructor. They will go "get their PADI" wherever is cheapest and closest to their hotel.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[DevonDiver]

All these conservations are very enlightening, although I dont believe most have addressed my initial question. Should OW courses be allowed to be taught in 2 days?

According to NetDoc, an agency only provides minimum standards. That means they only really care to achieve minimum standards. If 99.9% of students achieve those minimum standards within 2 days, then it is practicable.

You are correctly interpreting and applying the minimum standards ethos of a minimum standards agency to create minimum standards divers...

[rant begins...]

Unless fatality rates spike, there's just no business argument against shorter, cheaper courses. It's a profit-machine, both for the agency and the dive shop. I'm just surprised more PADI dive centers don't focus on selling 1-day Scuba Diver qualification courses, rather than 2-day Open Water courses...

Of course,... that ignores the individual instructor's income, ethics and job satisfaction.... but those aren't business factors for the agency or dive operation, are they? The same mechanism that pumps out multitudes of lack-luster divers, also churns out armies of instructors; so it's always an 'employers market'... and instructor concerns are made irrelevant. Instructors are ten-a-penny and easily replaced.

Of course,... it also ignores the level of training received by individual divers, which has direct relevance on their in-water safety, comfort and enjoyment. This knocks-on to their retention in the scuba community... but why should operations/agencies really care about that? The majority of the scuba industry is travel-based ('away from home') so low retention rates has little direct impact on the dive operation/instructor that trains them (although the overall industry/community impact is significant, but "hey doh"!).

As for diver safety... the agency is well insulated from liability for this (if they weren't, they would change their approach pretty damned quickly...). And, as mentioned, the rate of scuba fatalities would have to spike. There's obviously an 'acceptable' number of fatalities allowed per year. If that level isn't breached, then training is deemed acceptable. There are, of course, also many ways to prevent those figures spiking through statistical manipulation...

Any decision for a diving business to improve upon those minimum standards has a time/cost implication. It encompasses targeting a different market - the bulk of the market wants quick/cheap/easy training. Only a small demographic are willing to pay extra for longer, more involved training at higher standards.

You can't blame an employer who isn't motivated to suffer time/cost implications or target a niche market. Neither can you blame (according to NetDoc) the agency for empowering employers to operate on a profit basis of volume, not quality, through permission of very low minimum standards.

[rant ceases... advice begins...]

Even as a freelance/independent instructor, you will struggle to target niche markets when your product (agency certifications) appear to be identical to those offered by mass market, low quality training courses. It takes a long time, and a lot of effort, to differentiate yourself.

The best way to deal with time/cost implications and targeting niche markets is to align yourself with an agency that specializes in those markets. That means your product (agency certifications) is now different. The drawback is that it'll cost you more time and money to re-align yourself with a new agency. For some agencies (i.e. GUE) it is very expensive and time consuming. The choice is limited too... because you'd probably be an independent/freelancer... and many agencies (i.e. SSI) don't permit individuals to certify, you need a local agency-aligned shop to work from/certify via...

UTD might be a good option currently to consider. They have been expanding their instructor-base quite aggressively, target a niche 'high quality/high cost' market, have an above-average reputation for training competent, skilled divers. They also have policies which help preserve a decent income for instructors (which PADI would never dream of).

 

[The Chairman]

According to NetDoc, an agency only provides minimum standards. That means they only really care to achieve minimum standards. If 99.9% of students achieve those minimum standards within 2 days, then it is practicable.

If you don't agree with an agency's minimum standards, then find another agency. I did. However, if you fail to meet an agency's existing standards because of some self imposed time limit, then why blame the agency?

Where did the two day course come from? It wasn't any agency. In reality, it came from the consumer, or at least the pursuit of the consumer. The industry has been in a tail spin for some time. Many people's way of life are on the line and there are bound to be some shenanigans caused by their panic. As an individual or a shop, you choose if you want to join in the hysteria with everyone else or find a different tack. It reminds me of the scene from What About Mary where the guy talks about the 7 minute abs. Here's a reenactment of that scene:

​

I teach a lot differently than everyone else here in the Keys. I do and I'm proud of it. My classes are smaller, more intimate and I never, ever rush my students. Classes are taught at the student's pace, not mine. I also opt for competency over simple mastery and my students never kneel. I can usually produce a competent diver in just three days. I've had a couple who could have done it in two, but they weren't in a rush.

 

[DevonDiver]

I teach a lot differently than everyone else here in the Keys..

That's the critical point Pete. What you do works in your very specific, very limited, market. You seem to think that advice is applicably globally. In that, you are mistaken.

 

[SailNaked]

All these conservations are very enlightening, although I dont believe most have addressed my initial question. Should OW courses be allowed to be taught in 2 days?

Before I was an instructor I taught my wife to dive in two hours, quit your whinning, and teach your students, if you cant do it in two days then please take all the time you need.

more is not better, and just because it may have taken someone six days to learn the few minor skills needed to begin diving or another person was kicked in the head by the seals, it does not mean that that is the only way to learn to dive and everyone else is just skipping the proper initiation to the club you think you belong to.

this question keeps coming up in all its many forms, and I applaud all my SB friends that keep answering it so nicely.

well I need some coffee and to take my meds, maybe I'll edit it when I calm down.

 

[Mr. Black]

That's the critical point Pete. What you do works in your very specific, very limited, market. You seem to think that advice is applicably globally. In that, you are mistaken.

Right. To operate like this one needs to be in a geographical location where one has a pool of prospective customers who care about their safety (usually the places with more challenging conditions and lots of locals diving) and one needs patience to build a life-time of relationships so that word-of-mouth referrals kick in and people seek you out.

Does not work in Koh Tao or Cozumel unless you have the resources and persistence to build up your base over many years. Hence a global minimum course duration would not work.

There really is no good solution to the OP's problem short of a revolution or a dramatic change in the customer's expectations and mindset.

 

[The Chairman]

That's the critical point Pete. What you do works in your very specific, very limited, market. You seem to think that advice is applicably globally. In that, you are mistaken.

Actually Andy, despite your dismissive attitude, the Keys is incredibly similar to most vacation diving destinations around the world. If you read my post, you'll see that I don't go with what's considered mainstream. The critical point is that my ethics conflict with most every dive operator out there. I refuse to join their madness and teach in a completely different manner. What's to stop you from teaching to competence rather than just mastery? You say it doesn't apply, well then be specific. Why can't shops, or even you teach in an environmentally sensitive manner?

 

[DevonDiver]

Actually Andy.... What's to stop you from teaching to competence rather than just mastery? You say it doesn't apply, well then be specific. Why can't shops, or even you teach in an environmentally sensitive manner?

Pete, you are a man of many, many assumptions and limited perspective.

That isn't an insult, nor meant to be interpreted as one. You haven't been to, worked in, or ran a business at "most holiday destinations in the world". That's a fact... it's reality. That you assume "most vacation destinations around the world" are even remotely alike only reinforces that point.

Now... I'm not claiming to have experience in "most" destinations, but I've seen enough to know simply that different places have different business/teaching/working cultures. What works in one, does not work in another. There is no universality. The 'merica market is very unique.... 'merica isn't the world.... 'merica doesn't represent the world.... 'merica is very, very, very different from most places.

My comments weren't about me. They were for the OP and people in his situation. I have been in that situation. I don't think you have...

What, how and why I teach hasn't entered this discussion. I recognize that it would be irrelevant for it to do so. I fail to understand why you keep wanting to make this discussion about me? It's flattering and all,... but inappropriate really...

For the record, (and off-topic) I chose to specialize in my instruction - I teach sidemount/technical/wreck diving. It is extremely competency based, like you wouldn't believe. I get huge word-of-mouth recommendations, and many students visit repeatedly,.. people travel internationally, specifically to train with me.

That works, for me, because it is a very specialist niche. It wouldn't work for general recreational dive training... I'd be destitute if I tried. So would the OP...

If you think the Keys is like Koh Tao, then you are making more assumptions. I really can't be bothered to explain that to you. It's something you'd have to take upon trust... or get out of 'merica and see for yourself as a dive pro, working in that environment...

 

[The Chairman]

Pete, you are a man of many, many assumptions and limited perspective.

Talk about an assumption.

You haven't been to, worked in, or ran a business at "most holiday destinations in the world". That's a fact... it's reality.

The very same could be said about you. What makes your opinion any more valid? This is some vague appeal to experience I guess, but you haven't demonstrated that you have more than I do. I get that it's easy just to say "you don't understand" and "I can't be bothered", but that's more about you than me. Yeah, I get that you have some chip on your shoulder about "'merica" and possibly towards Americans in general. What does that have to do with class duration? It's nothing but a red herring.

No matter where you live/work/teach, you simply don't have to settle for mediocrity. Be the exception not the rule. If the shop you are working at puts your students and your reputation at risk, find another shop or teach independently. I'm sorry if you don't think that ethics are "universal", but they are. I have shops that won't use me because I won't do a two day class. I have plenty of students in spite of that and more important: I still have my integrity. Yeah, even here in America.