Couple of total newbie questions

[tparrent]

I must start by stating that I am recently certified OW diver with only a week's worth of easy tropical diving under my weightbelt. Therefore some of my questions and statements (already, probably ALL of my statements) should be taken as inexperienced utterances

I have recently read several books on wreck diving including "Dark Descent" and "Shadow Divers". One thing I noticed in all of them was that there appear to be dozens of divers who qualify as "arguably the best diver in the world", "without question, the most experienced wreck diver anywhere" and, of course, "the LEGENDARY whoever". Seriously, within each book the authors cite multiple divers as worthy of these "unique" descriptions. Are the egos amongst deep wreck divers so huge that they need to be constantly stroked like this? Maybe it's just poor writing.

Could someone explain to me the rules or lack thereof concerning artifact removal? I always thought, apparently incorrectly, that artifacts were supposed to be left in place. I know that has not always been the case but I thought it was true for the apst 20 years or so. Does this apply only to wrecks that are "preserved" under some authority? Do salvage rules vary by state? As I recall from my sailing days, normal salvage is federally regulated on a "first come, only served" basis. That is, if you get your line on a wreck first, you have salvage rights. Is it different for historical vessels?

One thing that certainly stood out from the books I read is this feeling that it is ok for certain self appointed "guardians" of wrecks to strip them empty but a cardinal sin to even touch anything for anyone outside their clique. Is this the reality you see out there? Seems like people get pretty self important about this stuff and claim that THEIR living rooms are full of historical artifacts while others are filled with treasure hunter's loot.

What is the general feeling in the wreck driving community about artifact removal? Seems to be a murky subject to me. After all, if you leave everything in place then you have essentially restricted access to very few people. If you put it in a museum or private collection (the difference between the two being that a museum curator gets to use public money to pursue his hobby IMHO), lots of people get to see the artifacts before they turn to silt deep underwater.

While diving in St Vincent I came across a sunken fishing vessel. It lay upside down with an enormous hole in its side. Looked like it had been bashed apart on the rocks. I found it fascinating and I could begin to see the appeal of wreck diving (although I cannot immagine myself EVER wanting to a penetration - scary stuff). This was in bathtub warm water at about 60 feet with lots of sunlight and no current. Is it still fun deep down in the dark and the cold? Fun or just challenging? I know both have feelings their rewards.

Again, please forgive my high sounding tone. I am just starting out and perhaps am not showing the respect I should. That is not my intention. I just want to begin to build some knowledge. There's an awful lot of wrecks here in the Great Lakes and my interest is piqued even though my skills are nowhere near refined enough for anything but the simplest of dives.

Thanks fo ryou time and any information you can share.

 

[Diver0001]

Could someone explain to me the rules or lack thereof concerning artifact removal? I always thought, apparently incorrectly, that artifacts were supposed to be left in place.

There are basically a few rules that can be applied to a particular wreck.

1) a wreck is sunk and is still in possession of the owner and/or insurance company. -- nothing can be removed and diving is not allowed without permission.

2) a wreck is sunk and is abandoned by both the owner and insurance company, called derelict -- free for all

3) a wreck is sunk and is declared a war relic -- treated like a grave site, diving allowed but no removal of artifacts or photography of human remains.

4) a wreck is designated as a significant archaeological site. No diving or artifact removal without permission

5) ownership of derelicts defaults to the government whose territorial waters it lies in. Same rules as #1 only governments are generally not as easy to deal with and the rules are different everywhere.

There are also some cultural differences in how wrecks are dealt with. In North America there is a "hands off" culture. In Europe there is a "free for all" culture, for example. In any case, every time you remove something from a wreck, even if you are in your right to do so, you can expect someone to moan about it.

R..

 

[Cacia]

the real hardcore tech divers are like mountain climbers. They never really know if they will make it out of there. I think the guys like the men in Shadowdivers are a pretty small group, worldwide. Aren't you used to men talking like that?

You know what they say..."If you can do it,..it ain't braggin' "

 

[Web Monkey]

It's usually just a good setup so you'll be impressed later when they do something stupid and die, or even more impressed when they do something stupid and live.

Terry

I have recently read several books on wreck diving including "Dark Descent" and "Shadow Divers". One thing I noticed in all of them was that there appear to be dozens of divers who qualify as "arguably the best diver in the world", "without question, the most experienced wreck diver anywhere" and, of course, "the LEGENDARY whoever". Seriously, within each book the authors cite multiple divers as worthy of these "unique" descriptions. Are the egos amongst deep wreck divers so huge that they need to be constantly stroked like this? Maybe it's just poor writing.

 

[moneysavr]

Hi TParrent,
You seem to live just a bit south of me! Welcome to diving.Well on the Great Lake we have laws to protect wrecks from looting,
Thease are history well preserved by the cold waters and the divers of the past still lurk out there when you could do any thing,this is sad due to the items rot in front yards,or are hid in basements so no one can see them!

I should know As last year I found Re/found a civil war era Brig on Lake Michigan by the name Mahoning and made it public to the state, soon I was told it may of been found by some old time looters of the past and one of them still is in the court system with legal battels with the state over stealing a porthole off a vessle just north of Chicago ,Their reason not to make it public- theirs was so no one would loot it! Sad to say they looted it and then kept it hid from all till I found it, they did leave several items and then one said I had been looting the site! just and old broke fool!

I am from the school of new divers to take only photos-shoot video for non divers and divers to see sites and leave only bubbles
The laws change from state to state, some are real hard to get a grasp on,we have many groups to protect thease sites with some well meaning folks and a few knobs and I have met a few!
See this link on a real cool video on a great lake schooner that some folks had the idea to raise off the lake bottom years back, sad truth now it has been bulldozed due to the 100 years caught up to it fast after it was taken from the LakeMichigan waters.
www.glmi.org/webcast/archive/aclarke.htm
Also this can be a hot topic that I love to ram up the but of some salt water divers they say if they dont take it that it will be lost for all,I have had it out with some of the best world class divers ones that dived the Dorria, just to make them nuts! just try to tell them what good dose that plate do in your basement or on e-bay for $$$
So good luck on diving, and if your ever up in Wisconsin and like to see several easy and in range let me know as late summer the waters warm as you can dive in a wet suit!
Dive safe,
Brad

 

[moneysavr]

It's usually just a good setup so you'll be impressed later when they do something stupid and die, or even more impressed when they do something stupid and live.

Terry

Just have to say your web site is Great! Nice job! can see you are good with that,now we will have to see how your pie turns out!
Dive safe,
Brad

 

[tparrent]

moneysavr,

I was aware of the Alvin Clark from my sailing days. Amazing story of misplaced dedication I believe. I think that wreck would have been far better left in place. Restoring old wooden ships is enough of a job even when they haven't been sunk for many years!

I definitely want to look at some of the Great Lakes wrecks this summer. Thought I would start by Chicago where there a few in relatively shallow water. The water is a *little* warmer down here as well. I would like to get up NOrth sometime for some diving as that is where my best sailing has always been.

I cannot imagine pulling something off a wreck myself although I guess I understand the impulse that drives some to recover artifacts. I'm a look and leave guy myself.

 

[Diver Dennis]

I'm not sure about other countries but when Diving in Chuuk in December we were told there is a $10,000 US fine for removing anything from any of the wrecks. I believe there might be some jail time too.

 

[rawls]

I must start by stating that I am recently certified OW diver with only a week's worth of easy tropical diving under my weightbelt. Therefore some of my questions and statements (already, probably ALL of my statements) should be taken as inexperienced utterances

I have recently read several books on wreck diving including "Dark Descent" and "Shadow Divers". One thing I noticed in all of them was that there appear to be dozens of divers who qualify as "arguably the best diver in the world", "without question, the most experienced wreck diver anywhere" and, of course, "the LEGENDARY whoever". Seriously, within each book the authors cite multiple divers as worthy of these "unique" descriptions. Are the egos amongst deep wreck divers so huge that they need to be constantly stroked like this? Maybe it's just poor writing.

One thing that certainly stood out from the books I read is this feeling that it is ok for certain self appointed "guardians" of wrecks to strip them empty but a cardinal sin to even touch anything for anyone outside their clique. Is this the reality you see out there? Seems like people get pretty self important about this stuff and claim that THEIR living rooms are full of historical artifacts while others are filled with treasure hunter's loot.

As far as what wrecks you can touch and take I think Diver0001 covered that pretty well. There are a couple of wrecks where I dive that you cannot take anything without basically going bankrupt. They are the Monitor, a Civil War iron clad, sunk in a storm off of Cape Hatteras and Blackbeard's flagship Queen Anne's Revenge sunk off of Beaufort Inlet. They are considered historical sites and any diver is forbidden to take anything from the wrecks. They are also forbidden to even dive on these sites without specific permits to do so. In the last couple of years a program called Diver Down was established to allow a certain number of divers per year to dive on Queen Anne's Revenge. You can do it too for $500 I guess the bottom line is it depends on the wreck. No matter what wreck it is you cannot remove human remains, but that goes unsaid.
As far as the egos and labels of the "best diver in the world"; I don't know about that. I assume that there are those egos that exist, but I think most of the labels are lauded on some of these divers by others and not themselves. I assure you I am not bragging about this because I'm not close to the caliber of these divers. I'm simply trying to address the "ego" issue. I have had the opportunity to dive with John Chatterton and Richie Kohler on a couple of occasions. Both are two of the most unassuming men you could ever meet. If they have great big egos and consider themselves the "best diver in the world" they hid it well. They are very gracious and kind people. And I never once heard them mention their accomplishments unless someone asked them and even then they simply answered the question with not one remark that one could consider to be egotistical. From my spending time with them I only saw two very down to earth, very approachable individuals. I have seen bigger egos on weekend recreational divers than what I saw in these two guys. I think alot of the time there are labels placed on famous divers who would not personally place on themselves.

 

[H2Andy]

I'm not sure about other countries but when Diving in Chuuk in December we were told there is a $10,000 US fine for removing anything from any of the wrecks. I believe there might be some jail time too.

that's because the government of the Federated States of Micronesia has declared
them cultural monuments.

same if you tried to remove artifacts from the USS Arizona (only this time it's US
jurisdiction that gets you)

basically, find out if a wreck is protected by law before diving on it or removing
artifacts.

most of the non U.S.-military wrecks in U.S. waters are not protected. that
includes the U-boats off the Atlantic coast. nothing illegal with diving on
them and removing artifacts. same with the Doria, for example, or a thousand
other civilian wrecks.