DIR-F class will now be a certification class

[Butch103]

.....I am neither for or against the whole thing as I have not taken an DIR training. Altough it is very appealing as a another step in my training.

Ok back to what I find amusing......All the worry about failing and retaking numerous times...is caring the hell out of everyone......big fears that it is too tough to do once and will take numerous attempts.........Kinda make PADI OW course look good now............... doesn't it....

 

[metridium]

Genesis wrote...
The point was that the focus of this (DIR-F) has now completely changed.

Then why were you yelping about imaginary prices in the first place?

Genesis wrote...
You can't pass if you smoke - never mind that there is no evidence that GUE can cite that smoking is a threat to safe diving at the level DIR-F embodies.

You can't pass if you're overweight on their scale, even though at the level of diving DIR-F embodies, once again, GUE can cite NOTHING to show that there is an increased threat to safe diving.

The course was originally intended to ensure students were prepared for Tech 1 and Cave 1, and that's once again receiving primary emphasis, it seems. Smokers and the obese aren't going to be in GUE's technical classes anyway, so why waste finite resources on them when there's excess demand as it is?

It's not as if DIRF were a profit center.

 

[WreckWriter]

Genesis once bubbled...
You can't pass if you smoke - never mind that there is no evidence that GUE can cite that smoking is a threat to safe diving at the level DIR-F embodies.

You can't pass if you're overweight on their scale, even though at the level of diving DIR-F embodies, once again, GUE can cite NOTHING to show that there is an increased threat to safe diving.

You can't even start if you smoke. You CAN if you're overweight. That's my whole complaint with their standards. Smokers are the ONLY ones singled out that cannot take the courses. If they were to put overweight/problem drinkers/drug abusers/double amputees/etc on there too I would no longer have a problem with it.

They won't do it though. Its currently socially and legally acceptable to ostracize smokers, its not for overweight people and others. The fat folks will sue and will win. The ONLY way they can be legally excluded is to make the fitness test hard enough that those folks can't manage it. Why can't that apply to smokers too? Oh well.

WW

 

[ckharlan66]

I am withholding judgement until we find out exactly how it is going to be set up. But I will voice the concerns that pop into my mind.

It seems that alot of people take the DIRF strictly to improve their diving and not necessarily to progress to the next level. I am afraid that this move could give the impression that it is just a step to the next level and doesn't have anything in it for those that plan to remain rec. divers. I also echo the concerns about how retakes will be done if you don't pass the first time and what the gear requirements will become (if they change at all) in that this too could limit rec. divers access to the information.

Just my thoughts.

Chad

 

[metridium]

Butch103 wrote...
Kinda make PADI OW course look good now............... doesn't it....

Maybe if you're beergoggling....

 

[DiverBuoy]

SeaJay once bubbled...
Here's the addition that could make this idea pretty radical: It could be set up so that when a diver takes any GUE class and completes it, they receive a diploma stating that they went to this class and completed it.

Thus, people who take the class and complete it, regardless of their skill level, receive something that said that they did, in fact, take the class. Call it a "diploma" or whatever. But only those who were able to demonstrate those required skills are actually "certified."

I believe that this would prevent the "bar" from being lowered, and at the same time still reward every diver for the effort that they put forth. DIR would not earn a bad rep, and you guys wouldn't be in a position where you felt pressure to "lower the bar."

Whatcha think?

I understand in your comment that you were trying to find a compromise saying the BOD could still hand something out. Because clearly from this thread they feel pressure. I appears to me they feel compelled or pressured somehow to hand out certifications to be recognized on some legal level within the diving industry?

But the only way legitimacy can be attained here is if the "diploma" or "certification" can be taken seriously. That can happen if the student is expected to meet performance objectives and demonstrate mastery of skills.

SeaJay in your scenario students never really meet performance objectives, how do you know if they even grasp it enough to practice later? How can you say they completed the course? All you'd be awarding them is an "I showed up" piece of paper. It certainly would be no certificate of accomplishment or completion. What legitimate organization would respect a piece of paper that essentially said - "I came and witnessed a DIR instructor teaching something". I certainly wouldn't hang it on my wall. Hey, I've got a receipt indicating I've paid for the class, I guess I'll frame that.

In Microsoft certification you get a certificate of completion for one purpose only - so you can go take an independantly administered test. It essentially says "admit one for examination". SeaJay, if this was what you had in mind I agree with you completely. Then DIR could sell pre-exam evaluation classes to see if all the practice the diver has been doing since they "completed" the DIR-F course has readied them for a final examination. Which could legitimately result in certification. Then DIR could market DIR-F as an exam prep course.

I have a question for all DIR/GUE folks ... does anyone get DIR-F right the first time out of the chute?

 

[ckharlan66]

I know the writer won't mind me posting it but I will withhold the name unless he wants to pop up and claim it for the purposes of privacy.

Chad

I think its a mistake to make it a cert course. I think that as it had existed it filled a real need in the dive industry. It was a program that was drawing a lot of attention to what the real skills of diving are and the people taking the course were from all agencies. I think that by being a cert course now it will become a bit more elitist in nature which is what many people already feel even though thats not what was intended by GUE to begin with.

The other thing that I wonder about has been commented on by folks who took the course is that they never felt like they passed the course--for the most part they had no regrets about that but would instead motivated to really work on their diving skills. I feel like these were motivated, good divers to begin with. If a certification is to be awarded then you have to have people actually pass the course which in the end will only serve to lower the standards so people can pass it. This is something that these very people complain about so loudly(and with justification IMHO) in regards to the dive training industry right now.

Having said that, I think GUE should require that if you want to take their other courses you take DIRF first and go practice and master what you have been shown. Then come prepared to demonstrate at the beginning of your chosen course that you have mastered the skills you learned in DIRF. If you can't prove mastery of the skills then you don't attend the course i.e. Tech or Cave.

PS...These are my thoughts as well.

 

[Genesis]

I think its a mistake to make it a cert course. I think that as it had existed it filled a real need in the dive industry. It was a program that was drawing a lot of attention to what the real skills of diving are and the people taking the course were from all agencies. I think that by being a cert course now it will become a bit more elitist in nature which is what many people already feel even though thats not what was intended by GUE to begin with.

Oh, on the contrary.

GUE has said, according to what MHK posted, that this is EXACTLY what they intended!

The BOD felt strongly that the DIR-F seminar was overshadowing our efforts in other areas, and they also felt that part of the core belief of GUE is that we want to remain an elite training organization that is inclusive only to those diver's that are committed to core principle's of DIR and issues surrounding making the seminar to inclusive consistently surrounded the program. Issues such as allowing smoker's or unfit diver's or diver's with more relaxed gear choices began to compromise what GUE stood for, so the BOD felt that even though the class wasn't a certification class, that all too many didn't necessarily recognize the distinction so in an effort to preserve the integrity of GUE training they decided that the time was appropriate.

There it is, in nice black letters... It IS their intent.

 

[runvus4]

Was trying not to say anything since I'm not part of GUE, but it is a very valid argument if they feel that DIR-F should be pass/fail because it is the basis of skills that are a minimum required set to proceed onto their other classes. That it is thought that their "minimum requirement" is so high as to be elitest is a subjective judgement. Something to remember is that their training is geared to be "a cut above the rest" so to speak because they feel that the current standards are too low. Or as they say on the GUE webpage "Our students are trained beyond the industry's most stringent requirements, culminating in a diver that is truly prepared for the underwater environment. "

The fact of the matter is that the pass/fail doesn't HAVE to occur immediately after the class. I would hope that they consider a pass/fail test that you can take at any time after attending a DIR-F class, but before you progress onto the later classes. This would allow those who can pass immediately after the class to proceed, and those who need additional practice to practice and test out at later date without having to take the entire class over again.

 

[ElectricZombie]

People WILL NOT sign up for a DIRF class if they feel that they may be required to take it multiple times. If GUE actually does this, they will lose a large number of potential customers.

I have not taken the DIRF class, but the idea of a certification based class sounds like a bad idea. You cannot expect anyone to master those skills in only 3 days. You certainly cannot expect anyone to pay an additional $300.00 to take the class again either.

They need to keep everything just like it is. You take the DIRF class to learn what you need to work on. You practice it for many months so you can move to the next level, cave or tech. Your skills can then be re-evaluated by a GUE Instructor when you sign up for the more advanced classes. If the diver is unable to perform, they need to be sent home for more practice.