DIR-F class will now be a certification class

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I have no problems with it being a prereq for the advanced classes. In fact I think it should be, but I think that GUE would be better served to leave the DIRF class accessable to all in order to get the word about them out and to improve the skill set for a wider cross section of the dive community. If it is limited (whether it is actually limited or just perceived to be) to those that are already sold on the idea it restricts a good avenue to spread the work that the skills can and should be mastered by all.

Chad
 
If there is a "pre-req" issue, then make the testing the entrance exam for the other class(es).

Frankly, GUE (and the rest) ought to do this anyway. Its the only RIGHT way to do these things. PUBLISH the performance bar(s) that must be met, and the diver, when showing up for the class, is tested. If they fail then most (but not all, since the testing takes some amount of time) of their money is refunded and they do not take the class, since they do not meet the requirements.

This way the "card-grabbing" thing goes away, since there is no point. Having the card buys you nothing in terms of admittance to another class. It only means you passed the last one. That's appropriate, since skills unused become rusty, and instructors vary in quality.

The problem with this is that then GUE can't demand that you take DIR-F before Tech 1, for instance, since if you can pass the skills for Tech 1, then you can and do. It also means that I can "score out" of virtually anything, IF I know my stuff, irrespective of how I learned it.

If I can do the DIR-F skills, and meet some OBJECTIVE physical performance criteria, then I can. Whether I smoke, drink, have a BMI of 17 or 36 is immaterial. If the standard is that I must run a 10 minute mile, then it is. If the standard is a 400 meter swim in 12 minutes, then it is. If I must demonstrate an airshare while hovering at no more than 5' and no less than 2' from the bottom, horizontally, then that is what I must do.

If I can meet the standard, then I can. If I cannot, then I cannot, and the reason for my failure is immaterial.

If GUE is really about raising the bar, instead of marketing-speak and bull%hit, then they would go this route.

For instance, if GUE is REALLY about "health" of the diver, then demand a lung and cardiac performance test. Whether I smoke is not material. Whether my lung performance is acceptable is material, if that is truly the issue. Ditto for weight - body mass is an indicator that all may not be well in terms of health, but it is not definitive! There are plenty of fit and (moderately) fat people who have lower risks of cardio "events" than a "skinny rail" person who is otherwise unfit.

Isn't that what GUE claims to stand for? A higher bar, and proficiency, as opposed to card-collecting?

That is what they SAY.

Will GUE walk the talk, or is it just talk?

I think its just talk, bluster, marketing-speak and unverifyable assertions and claims without ANY justification (beyond religion.) I've already skewered MHK on their "claimed" stuff with their Triox class, in that he has made claims of various impairment sources but has said the backup data is all "proprietary".

Uh, no MHK. To prove something with medical (or any other scientific) relavence you peer review it in an open journal. Its published and critiqued, and, most importantly, independantly replicated. Until you do all of that you have nothing more or less than a bald-faced claim that falls into the category of religious belief rather than proven scientific fact.

Dropping the "card flashing" stuff and replacing it with published testing criteria for entrance into each of their classes would convince me that they are more than bluster, religion, and kool-aid drinking.

I suspect it'll happen when Hell freezes over, and that in fact GUE is nothing really different than PADI with a different marketing "spin".
 
ElectricZombie once bubbled...
People WILL NOT sign up for a DIRF class if they feel that they may be required to take it multiple times. If GUE actually does this, they will lose a large number of potential customers.
I am sure that they are aware of this. Contrary to Genesis' thoughts on the matter... this is not a profit driven move.
 
I have never joined into these conversations before, but have read almost all of them. I find myself becoming very curious about dir-f, and possibly take one in the future. My question is, from what i've read, you don't receive any plastic or paper after you complete the class now. Why couldn't the class be set up like this: The format stays the same, if you pass the standards set by the GUE guys, you get a card. If you do not pass the skills, you are in the same boat that you are in now coming out of the class. The people who are dedicated to go on to the next level, can take "a certification exam". In my opinion the dir-f is a discovery class, it introduces people to the concepts of dir, which if people weren't exposed to would be a bad thing for halcyon and gue. The class can serve both purposes, in that you can touch alot of people and still cater to the people that will go on to tech/cave1.








Brian
 
DiverBuoy once bubbled...
SeaJay, if this was what you had in mind I agree with you completely.

Yep, that's what I have in mind. The diploma would be worthless. It says that the diver showed and took the class. It's the "certification" that's worth something. Only divers able to meet certain requirements would be able to earn a certification.

See, this way, you'd shut up the people who complained that they didn't earn anything by taking the class. They'd be getting a diploma.

Yet, the "bar" wouldn't move over time... No standards would have to be lowered. And we all agree that it's the "high bar" that makes this class so awesome. The last thing any of us want to see is that bar lowered... Even those of us who would have failed the class.

Pretty silly, hunh? All these diplomas, certifications, and such? I think so too. Perhaps diplomas and certifications should go the way of the jacket-style BC and flutter kick. :D That's why I'm a fan of NOT making this a certification course. However, if they insist, then simply make sure the "bar" never gets lowered. The seperate diploma/c-card would do that, I think.


I have a question for all DIR/GUE folks ... does anyone get DIR-F right the first time out of the chute?

Nobody in our class did. Some were better than others, but certainly nobody was good enough to pass. At least, that's how I saw it.

See, something tells me that with those kinds of stats, instructors would feel pressure to put a "bell curve" on it... You know... About half the class passes.

And the "lowering of the bar" would have started... :(
 
Here are some random thoughts and fears...it's actually kinda funny to read all of our ideas and thoughts here prior to GUE making any formal statements, give us divers a controvercial topic and we'll all immediately chime in with worst case scenarios etc...

Anyhow, here are some thoughts.

When I first heard of DIR before I started researching, my very first initial impression was that of a very elitist group with a cult-like mentality of were right everyone else is wrong, get in line and goose step with us or get out of the water. I asked my LDS about their thoughts and although they are a great shop, they tended to echo these sentiments. I began by reading every thread here I could, then on to the GUE website, the WKPP website, numerous other techincal sites etc. I bought the Fundy book and absorbed it. I watched the DIR3 video and read the transcript of DIR1. After going through this exercise I came to the conclusion that 80% of the negativly associated criticisms of the DIR philosophy stem from misinformation, misunderstanding and outright fear of the unknown. This combined with some very strong personalities on both sides of the debate leads to an us vs. them philosophy.

I realized that the DIRF course was initally designed to make sure that everyone moving on to the more technical courses had the required skills set and hence was very humbling to almost all. I also came to see the DIRF course as the antithisis of the standard OW (any agency) certification. Here, instead of showing a skill once (to whatever satisfaction level the individual instructor has) and getting a card saying "I'm a diver", now an individual is taken out and shown explicitly what an advanced diver should look like in terms of diving skills. You are shown the bar and can individually determine where you are on the spectrum of achieving this result. My belief is that this is a great way of really showing divers how good they are and where they need to go.

I have liked reading the DIRF reports and threads here in which people who are not interested in necessarily jumping into techincal diving have enjoyed taking the course for personal improvement and the skills set is not taught anywhere else as a cohesive whole. When I read some of the criticisms of the skills of divers in the water today, the DIRF seemed to me to be a slowly growing "wave" of very accomplished divers showing the diving community where they need to improve. It also appears to be much more geared to exposing ANYONE who is curious about the whole DIR thing to an overview of what it entails.

My concern is that if the course becomes a pass/fail course with standardized gear configurations required from day one, then the us vs. them mentality will be completely inflamed. Now not only do you have to commit to the DIR configuration 100%, you also have to show-up to class already knowing what is going to be taught. This seems to go 100% against some of what I have read on the GUE site about their mandate to go out and bring about a completely new understanding of scuba instruction in order to create better divers and dive education. If you already have to be DIR prior to having the introduction to DIR yes you will immediately weed out a massive group of people who desperately need this information but who will now go back to doing what they always have because now the full commitment to the system is required prior to a full understanding of what one is committing to. (This is my rambling explaination of a worst case scenario).

I personally am planning on taking the DIRF course to understand how to be a better diver. I do not currently have the funds or the dive experience to consider tech diving for some time but I want to see how to be a better diver. I want to learn how to better organize and streamline my gear, I want to learn how to be a better buddy, I want to learn how to do dive tables in my head. I worry that if the prerequisites for the course get to be too much, then I won't be able to take the course which I desperately need until I have many more dives under my belt ingraining bad habits.

I would hope that GUE takes a look at the DIRF course with two distinct objectives: 1) to be an introduction to DIR in every sense of the word so as to show divers what it is all about 2) to have some aspect of "testing" which can be done to achive "certification" either at the end of the course or alternately in the future...kinda like a final exam which can be done at anytime...this could even be additional funds...to demonstrate mastery of the skills required. In this way, the curious are not automatically excluded and/or priced out of the class and also the GUE objectives of maintaining an elite training group are met as in order to advance within their classes you must demonstrate that you indeed have the skills required.

Sorry for the long post, just a few of the thoughts I've been having.
 
Genesis once bubbled...

...Isn't that what GUE claims to stand for? A higher bar, and proficiency, as opposed to card-collecting?

That is what they SAY.

Will GUE walk the talk, or is it just talk?

I think its just talk, bluster, marketing-speak and unverifyable assertions and claims without ANY justification (beyond religion.) I've already skewered MHK on their "claimed" stuff with their Triox class, in that he has made claims of various impairment sources but has said the backup data is all "proprietary".

Uh, no MHK. To prove something with medical (or any other scientific) relavence you peer review it in an open journal.

<snip>


Whoo, boy. :eek:

MHK will share all of the information he has with you. Take the course, and he'll show it.

See, the problem is that if he just goes and publishes it, then people take the theories out of context and apply them partially in their diving. That can be really dangerous, especially if a certain "impairment" requires a holistic style to be effective. For example, I got some hints about these theories and deco from these guys. They seemed to have shorter deco times than some other sources I've been checking out, but they also start their deco much deeper, hold their bodies horizontal in the water column, and rise at 30 ft/min, not the 60 ft/min as is published in many books. Imagine someone reading the specifics, but unable to keep their body horizontal... Or forgetting that an ascent rate of 30 ft/min is required... Simply put, simply sharing the information could be really dangerous. If you truly have an interest, then take the class and have this stuff shared with you correctly.


I suspect it'll happen when Hell freezes over, and that in fact GUE is nothing really different than PADI with a different marketing "spin".

Hm.

Well, you can have any "suspicion" you want... You're entitled. I know how you feel. I felt the same way. Let me tell you what I found: These guys are real. But you have to decide that for yourself. The best way I know of is to take the DIR-F class. Find out for yourself. There's no need to get angry about it. :D
 
I'm not a dir diver, but I have a hard time with people complaining about gue's or any other companies marketing. If you own a business and you do work you deserve to make money. Why should these people do everything for free. I'm sure they could stay home and be broke. just my 2 cents




Brian
 
boomx5 once bubbled...
why don't you take your whining over to the quest list and see if you can get some answers over there?

I sense a "farm animal stupid" post in our near future...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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