DIR-F Report - Sault Ste. Marie CANADA

[ScubaScott]

Go up into God's country for a while and look what happens....

Good to hear from you Dan..... and thank you for explaining and reasoning in this little discussion.....

Now, before the beatings begin, from my 2nd post in this thread, after Grateful Diver already called me on it:

.... Yep - sorry everyone, I misled you there. Dan never said the gear was crap, but did explain why different gear had limitations or restrictions or were just plain dangerous. I called it crap for short.

It was a poor choice of words, but I was giving the "readers digest" version, and Grateful just cannot let it go......

ABQdiver - Dan's pretty much told you about our suits. They are popular suit, sold everywhere. My suit was a semi-custom, because of my height. I was measured in store for the suit - measurements are taken in about 25 different parts of your body. But nothing is done for the underwear. And that is where my major problem is. It looks like I have garbage bags on me from the knee down - big, bulky extra garment that has no reason for being there (I said this to the shop owner before this course - the response was "Its industry standard". And it is.... she wasn't lying). But the material has zero stretching ability. I have ape arms - should be able to reach my valves with no problem. In water I had to pull a contortionist fit to strugle to do it, while my buddy Scott, didn't have a hope in hell.

And Wetman, I certainly couldn't get through your post without cracking a smile!

Keep reaching for your knob.....

SS

 

[Dan MacKay]

Finally a good discussion. Absolutely outstanding.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Dan ... once again, thanks for a great, informative post. Part of the reason I brought up the points I did was due to perceptions ... or perhaps I should call them misperceptions ... on my part. I really was interested in engendering a constructive discussion. Unfortunately, I allowed myself to get involved in a bit of a "contest" ... sorry, about that. Wasn't my intention.

Scott ... I'm letting it go. I was trying to make a point about how a choice of terms can leave unnecessarily negative impressioins ... both on the person who used them and the people who hear them. Obviously it went wide of the mark ... so never mind. It really wasn't that big a deal.

As to the undergarment discussion ... flexibility and bulk were important considerations when I made my choice. This wasn't due to needing to reach my tank valves so much as the fact that I'm an old, fat dude and don't want to compromise what flexibility I still have. I chose a custom-cut Diving Concepts TPS thinsulate undergarment (100g). I settled on this garment primarily because of it's flexibility and modest bulk. Underneath the garment I wear a very thin layer of fleece to wick moisture away from my body ... I'm not sure what "weight" this is, but it's as thin as I could find. Again, I don't want the bulk ... I've got enough of that without the suit. This combination works well for me. I wear a custom-cut DC trilam suit. It's fairly worn out now, having been through roughly 450 dives ... but I have to say they did a capital job of cutting a suit to fit my body.

I agree with you about the ankle weights. They have their uses ... but not on a diver ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Butch103]

.........to finally have an intelligent, informative discussion about DIRF course. Thanks to MHK and Dan and others for keeping this civil and helpful.

Grateful Bob, I think you have contributed a lot just by asking the questions you did.

I have to pose this question.

"what is the deal with drag?"......Let me try to explain my reasoning for asking..........How much effect does the drag of the snorkle (over and above the nusance facture), loose fitting suit etc. Again I know the other reasons for not wanting these, but in reality how much drag do they cause.

Drag is very important when dealing with speed, planes, trains and automobiles ..yes makes sense. But how much effect does drag have on slow deliberate diving? In experience does it really have a drastic affect on your air supply (meaning SAC rate)....Does it mean you have two or three extra gulps of air on an AL80 ?

Qurious..........

 

[Aquamaniac]

Butch.
I think you will be amazed at how much a little bit of streamlining can do.
Once your in a horizontal, trimmed position, effectivly the only part of you that is breaking the water is your head, shoulders and the top of your tank.
If you think of that area as a percentage of your whole body, it really is quite small.
If you remove all the little things that you dont really need, like snorkles, slates and incorrectly located regs etc, you really can have a very dramatic effect on the amount of effort required to move through the water.
A few months ago, I was following a few guys in the local quarry, the position and configuration of these guys was less than ideal. It was interesting to see them kicking continuously whilst I was following with a very gentle modified frog kick, almost a glide.
Try it in a pool some time, with nothing on but a snorkle, you should be able to feel the snorkle wobble and resist as you swim.

Dave

 

[Butch103]

...thanks for your input, but I get the part of keeping horizontal...only makes sense, but I will impress again the question snorkle wobbles yes...slates dangle yes....but how much does it affect under water when you are swimming in a slow leisurely manner.

Folks understand I am not a brand new diver, but also not a seasoned veteran.

I guess I will never get what is the quantatative measurement out there that says hey by getting rid of the wobbling snorkle you can get another breath of air under water because you saved that much energy.

I suppose the collective savings as opposed to the individual savings is really the answer.......ut:

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Butch103 once bubbled...
[B
"what is the deal with drag?"......Let me try to explain my reasoning for asking..........How much effect does the drag of the snorkle (over and above the nusance facture), loose fitting suit etc. Again I know the other reasons for not wanting these, but in reality how much drag do they cause.

Drag is very important when dealing with speed, planes, trains and automobiles ..yes makes sense. But how much effect does drag have on slow deliberate diving? In experience does it really have a drastic affect on your air supply (meaning SAC rate)....Does it mean you have two or three extra gulps of air on an AL80 ?

Qurious.......... [/B]

Thanks Butch ... let me address your question from a different angle ... and to say that how much drag matters really depends on both your diving syle and the conditions you're diving in.

A photographer may not really care so much about drag ... they're going to move very slowly ... sometimes only going 20 or 30 feet in an entire dive. Drag is only a concern to that diver if there's current ... and even then it may be nothing more than a nuisance. He's really more concerned with buoyancy control than streamlining ... and the two aren't necessarily related.

Another diver may prefer to really cover a lot of territory ... say for example, exploring the boundaries of an underwater park where there's modest current. Drag will matter a lot more to that diver because it costs more effort to move from place to place ... and the accumulation of just a little bit of extra drag over, say, a 45 or 50 minute dive can be substantial ... far more than a few breaths when you add up the extra CO2 buildup all that extra effort generates.

Now let's look at a scenario where you're diving in current. Say you're diving from a boat and you have to start your dive by stepping off the back and surface swimming to the anchor line. Non-streamlined equipment and/or body position will slow you down even at the surface, forcing you to work harder to get to the descent line ... increasing your need for air even before you start your dive. You'll be breathing harder right from the get-go. Then, if you've planned your dive correctly, you're going to spend roughly half of it working your way against that current ... working harder than your more streamlined buddy (for example), and using a significantly increasing amount of air as the dive continues. This is really the scenario where a good horizontal position, well-balanced equipment, and a well-fit exposure suit are going to help you ... it may be the difference between spending 20 minutes panting and puffing, or spending that same 20 minutes exerting only a moderate amount of effort that amounts to no more exertion than a brisk walk. It is VERY noticeable.

This is also the reason you've seen the remarks about ankle weights ... they tend to make most divers' feet sink, putting you in more of a (as our DIR folks called it) "heads-up" position. You'd be amazed at how hard you have to work to swim like that. That's one reason why newer divers tend to be such hoovers ... they haven't yet figured out how to maintain a horizontal position as they swim, and end up pushing a lot of water out of their way in order to move.

The boat's a good analogy ... notice the difference between the wake left by a tug and that left by a sailboat. The latter is designed to minimize drag thru the water ... the latter just pushes it out of the way.

Water's pretty heavy stuff to push around ... the less of it you move, the less energy you'll need to get where you're going.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Sorry, we were both typing at the same time apparently.

You're basically on the right track with you talk about cumulative effects. Gear is far less of a factor on drag than is technique. It does matter ... but again, it depends on how much gear you've got creating unnecessary drag. A snorkel isn't going to cost you much at all ... especially if you're a slow swimmer and/or not swimming against strong current.

Basically I stopped wearing one because every time I'd reach for my BCD inflator hose, I'd end up with the damn snorkel in my hand ... :wacko:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ScubaScott]

Thanks Grateful - that was an excellent explanation about drag - much better than the choice of words I would have used

Snorkels are great for snorkeling, but aren't needed on your scuba kit. As far as the arguement of doing long surface swims, why not put your reg in your mouth instead - how much gas can you really suck back on the surface? Not enough to affect your dive....

SS

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Or, as an alternative on surface swims, just turn over and swim on your back. I find it's a lot easier anyway ... and you can breathe all the air you want without either snorkel or reg ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)