DIR wars...Is it the name?

[Keysdrifter454]

That's hardly a sound approach. The best dive buddies I've ever had are people I met by going at it hammer and tongs with them in an online forum. It's a great way to make friends, if you have the maturity not to make it personal.

Dweeb is one of my closest friends.

I met him on the 'net, 98 or 99.

We have at least a thousand bitterly opposed posts about the adequacy of PADI OW training behind us (and not settled yet).

I've driven 1000 miles to dive with him in a quarry, time well spent.

It's his dry and concise assesment of other people's emotional points of view, DIR vs Stroke in particular, that people find aggravating.

But yeah, he can debate any subject, from either side, on a moments' notice.

Because he's smarter than most, which aggravates the masses ever further.

 

[PhotoTJ]

But yeah, he can debate any subject, from either side, on a moments' notice.

Because he's smarter than most, which aggravates the masses ever further.

If he were smarter than most, he'd realize he's going to really hack off some nut job one day with his dry concise assesments.

 

[Scuba]

It's also becoming increasingly obvious that your style of conversation is at odds with what we want this board to represent. Eventually, we'll have to make a business decision.

Consider your choices.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

What do you want this board to represent? Is there room for contentious debate about a polarizing subject?

From my quite tolerant view, I see no reason for directing such an admonition at dweeb.

These DIR pro and con discussions, or whatever you want to call them, are 95 % entertainment anyways.

I'll take civil personal expression of ideas, however brutally honest and uncomfortable it may be, over censorship of expression and ideas any day. One may suppress forms of expression and ideas, but not the thought of them, or their reality. There is such a thing as differing proper discourse acceptable to members of society under various contexts. If dweebs comments are out of line here, my question is: how bland is this board going to become?

I hope your comments reflect a moment of overzelousness, or a personal opinion. I hope they do not reflect the general concensus of the owner and operators of this board. I've seen moderators get in heated discussions and throw a few mud pies themselves.

 

[tachyon]

The name implies there's a right way, and somebody has set out to determine it.

No, the name implies that DIR *IS* the right way. DIR = TRUE

It is implied that if you disagree with DIR then you *are not* seeking the right way. NOT DIR = FALSE

I and many others do not accept that NOT DIR = FALSE

By the laws of logic, if DIR = TRUE than anything which is NOT DIR = FALSE. Since this is not true, this is a situation where pure logic can not be applied as simply as you imply.

DIR contains many good ideas. Many of those ideas can be found elsewhere. Some DIR procedures are demonstrably NOT the right way to do things in all situations. Sometimes, they're not even the right way to do things in technical / cave diving. Whenever I've seen them pointed out, some DIR disciples assault not the issue, but the credibility of those contesting the procedures... and the controversy continues. Of course, DIR isn't alone in this. It's just the topic of this conversation.

Does the name DIR put people off? I believe it does. Do their requirements and calling for their divers to avoid diving with non-DIR divers alienate other people in the sport and industry? Yes. Am I a candidate for DIR? No. I'm overweight by a large margin. That makes me a 'stroke' in any DIR diver's book. You know what? I don't really care. I dive. I enjoy diving. I dive within my limitations. If someone won't dive with me because I'm overweight, use a dive computer, use a combination power inflator-emergency second stage, and don't wear springs on my feet then I'll find someone else who will.

There have been DIR proponents who have stated explicitly in this thread that not only am I not acceptable to take their training, but that I'm not acceptable as a dive buddy, despite never having met me and having no idea of my diving skill. They can magically tell that I'm not 'worthy' because of any of a number of protocols on equipment, training and fitness.

Diving with someone who has superior skills should be an opportunity to learn and improve on your own skills. Once you've mastered those skills, you should pass them on to people whose skills aren't as good as your own. That is the obligation of the student in martial arts and academe. I see it as an unstated rule in the diving industry as well and consider that a good thing.

I see a disconnect in this cycle with DIR's philosophy if not it's practice. If you limit your diving partners to those who are on some 'approved' list, you limit the skills you can learn to those posessed by that group, especially if any skill learned or demonstrated is 'dangerous' if it isn't already in your 'Bible'.

tachyon

 

[RonFrank]

I say this because my cousin, a world class marine biologist had never heard of DIR??

you can read about her last exploration here: http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/04deepscope/welcome.html


She has been diving since the early 70's, and travels is some seriously heavy circles in her field. EVERYONE she works with dives, even if much of her diving is deep via a submersible like the Johnson Sea Link she still dives for recreation on a regular basis.

Maybe DIR is not the movement that so many seem to believe it is.....

Ron

 

[JeffG]

You don't need to ... it's obvious.

It's also becoming increasingly obvious that your style of conversation is at odds with what we want this board to represent. Eventually, we'll have to make a business decision.

Consider your choices.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Even though I am not fit to clean toliets...he is to the point and logical...I would have to agree that his presence is a good thing for ScubaBoard.

 

[danw2002]

Well no. A stroke is, "anyone with an unsafe attitude."

Seems to me that many people who criticize DIR whine about their individual preferences. There is inherent safety in a well thought out diving system that is standardized. My familiarity with the system allows me to spot and cope with my DIR diving buddy's problems underwater.

Seems like the critics I know personally have too much pride to start over in DIRF.

that is very true, never too old/young to learn....and so always learning...BTW love your screen name....Scubamoo....hehehe.

 

[OE2X]

That's hardly a sound approach. The best dive buddies I've ever had are people I met by going at it hammer and tongs with them in an online forum. It's a great way to make friends, if you have the maturity not to make it personal.

I don't take any of this personally. I just have a different approach as to who I choose to spend my time with. If your style of finding dive buddies works for you - great. It's not my choice though...

 

[GDI]

It appears that this thread has proven that if you can't argue the facts you resort to the principles. If you can't argue the principles you call the other guy names.


With that being said I have taken the better part of an hour and a bit to read these posts. Quite entertaining I must say. However the censorship guidelines on the board as governed by the TOS does not prevent anyone from partaking in a heated debate. The TOS are designed to provide for you a guideline as to how a debate is to be conducted. If an open or public forum degrades in it's context or tone then it is usually not appreciated by the viewing audience. If continued unchecked such a debate can reform into a mob mentality of expression, thus the purpose of moderators. The balance of which can be delicate, one must chose their words and tone carefully. While it may be acceptable to call out someone it is not acceptable to be disrespectful of their point of view. Argue the facts, argue the principle, but do not argue the personality. Oh how easy this happens

 

[Keysdrifter454]

With all due respect, virtually every objection you have listed has absolutely nothing to do with DIR itself, but the personalities and more specifically the emotions, involved.

If you've been diving Chattanooga (ChooChoo divers) a while, no doubt you and I have shared water in Loc Low Minn many times together.

If you ever passed a guy by himself skip breathing while reading a paperback (3hrs10m my personal best with an al80 at 3K) on the 20' platform, that would be me (not very DIR, especially when you tend to nap).

There's a lot of different ways to put this, but, your main problem with DIR is that you're offended by their prejudgment and ostricism of you as a diver.



But why would you care?

No, the name implies that DIR *IS* the right way. DIR = TRUE

It is implied that if you disagree with DIR then you *are not* seeking the right way. NOT DIR = FALSE

I and many others do not accept that NOT DIR = FALSE

By the laws of logic, if DIR = TRUE than anything which is NOT DIR = FALSE. Since this is not true, this is a situation where pure logic can not be applied as simply as you imply.

DIR contains many good ideas. Many of those ideas can be found elsewhere. Some DIR procedures are demonstrably NOT the right way to do things in all situations. Sometimes, they're not even the right way to do things in technical / cave diving. Whenever I've seen them pointed out, some DIR disciples assault not the issue, but the credibility of those contesting the procedures... and the controversy continues. Of course, DIR isn't alone in this. It's just the topic of this conversation.

Does the name DIR put people off? I believe it does. Do their requirements and calling for their divers to avoid diving with non-DIR divers alienate other people in the sport and industry? Yes. Am I a candidate for DIR? No. I'm overweight by a large margin. That makes me a 'stroke' in any DIR diver's book. You know what? I don't really care. I dive. I enjoy diving. I dive within my limitations. If someone won't dive with me because I'm overweight, use a dive computer, use a combination power inflator-emergency second stage, and don't wear springs on my feet then I'll find someone else who will.

There have been DIR proponents who have stated explicitly in this thread that not only am I not acceptable to take their training, but that I'm not acceptable as a dive buddy, despite never having met me and having no idea of my diving skill. They can magically tell that I'm not 'worthy' because of any of a number of protocols on equipment, training and fitness.

Diving with someone who has superior skills should be an opportunity to learn and improve on your own skills. Once you've mastered those skills, you should pass them on to people whose skills aren't as good as your own. That is the obligation of the student in martial arts and academe. I see it as an unstated rule in the diving industry as well and consider that a good thing.

I see a disconnect in this cycle with DIR's philosophy if not it's practice. If you limit your diving partners to those who are on some 'approved' list, you limit the skills you can learn to those posessed by that group, especially if any skill learned or demonstrated is 'dangerous' if it isn't already in your 'Bible'.

tachyon