Dive Computer or Tables and console?

[Finnatic]

Bad Pug..you sneaky thing you!

Seriously,,I have been told to hold my feet up by a dive op to put my fins on before giant stride only to have both fins go diving without me...this is the ultimate in dive resort "stupidity"...I really don't mind and would prefer doing my "own thing".

 

[Uncle Pug]

Cindy... I'm sure if I ever go to Cozumel (and we have been talking about it) that I will need some sensitivity training first so I don't hurt the DMs feelings.

 

[H2Andy]

You don't need a dive computer. Period.

lol, of course not.

nor, other than a tank, a first stage, and a second stage,
do you need anything else to scuba dive.

however, fins and a mask greatly facilitate the experience

as does some sort of bouyancy control device, exposure protection, something that measures depth,
some way to tell how much air you have left, something to cut yourself out of entanglements...

and a computer

 

[BigJetDriver]

I am preparing to start my journey into SCUBA and have not yet experienced my first dive. I am striving to achieve at least an AOW certification. I was wondering, given their praise, should I invest in a computer or stick to the basics of dive tables and console? I understand the benefits and flexibility of a computer offers, but which do you think would make me a better diver?

Strike Eagle,

I think you are already seeing a wide spread in responses, from "Get one now!" to the Most Ancient and Honourable Uncle Pug's Luddite stance of "The machine is evil!"

As usual, the real truth lies somewhere in the middle, as posited for instance, by H2O Andy. To be a good diver, you MUST learn the tables. You must have an understanding of why and how they were created, and how they go about trying to keep you within "safe" limits. If you note the quotation marks around the word safe, you will find out about the limits, both statistical and practical, of the tables.

A computer is just a tool, and the right computer for your regime of diving is a very useful tool. Like any sharp-edged tool, however, you need to know how to use it properly, what its limits are, and what to do if it fails you.

With all respect to the Most Ancient and Honourable Uncle Pug, no human being can sample the conditions around himself and calculate how that affects his or her decompression requirements as rapidly and accurately as can the micro-processor in a wet computer. If such a person exists, Professor Xavier stands ready to recruit him or her!

It all comes down to having the knowledge to understand what your tools can do for you, and using them wisely.

Can I, for instance, fly a 777 by hand, using eyeballs and only the most limited instruments, with a couple of flight surfaces controlled by what we laughingly call "Chain Drive"? You bet your sweet patoot I can. We practice it in the sim. The next question is, do I want to have to do it??? Come on, now. I'm sure you can guess the answer!

The aircraft I fly has more and better computers than the Space Shuttle, even with its latest upgrade. (No joke, kids! Makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck that they pilot that old dinosaur into space, but, as they say, that's another story.)

Why would I want to cripple my computers and fly the damn thing by Braille in "gauge mode". Again, I CAN do it, but it makes no sense to do so!

To come back to Earth, so to speak, I would highly recommend that you take the advice of the moderate Moderator, Andy, and learn your tables well. Then you will know which computer you want, and what to do if it fails you.

Later, as your diving advances, you will get another computer of your choice, and you will still need to have tables (which you will understand), a depth gauge, and a bottom timer. This provides redundancy, or back-up, and therefore increases safety. This is just a natural progression.

After all, to quote the words of Mr. Natural: "Get the right tool for the job, kids!"

Cheers! :bravo:

 

[Uncle Pug]

no human being can sample the conditions around himself and calculate how that affects his or her decompression requirements as rapidly and accurately as can the micro-processor in a wet computer.

The real truth is that no computer can sample the all conditions that make up your dive and calculate how that affects your decompression requirements. Rapidly calculating with great accuracy the wrong information will not produce the right output. And since the amount of information that a dive computer can consider is seriously limited it is, in fact, wrong information. Garbage in ~ garbage out. The faster the computer... the faster you get your garbage.

Now, the thinking brain can take much more into account than the lowly dive computer and can adjust the dive accordingly. And the thinking brain can be trained to do it so automatically that it really is no mental feat at all.

Comparing the complexity of flying a 777 to scuba diving just to wow the crowd into buying computers is silly. But most folks are silly enough to be impressed by it so I'm going to buy stock in Suunto.

 

[Finnatic]

BJD...thanks for putting it all in perspective.
Andy...sane as always.
Pug..It seems we are destined to Coz Feb 2005...or Xcala..Here some of us like to escape the carnival madness...wanna dive with Dixie Divers??? PM me!

 

[Far_X]

BJD...thanks for putting it all in perspective.
Andy...sane as always.
Pug..It seems we are destined to Coz Feb 2005...or Xcala..Here some of us like to escape the carnival madness...wanna dive with Dixie Divers??? PM me!

Hey Finnatic - I managed to experience my first carnival before I moved to NY in March this year. My ex-wife wouldn't let me attend any of the parades south of Lake Pontchartrain so obviously I headed down to Bourbon St this year just to see why she wouldn't It took me ages to find a way past the Zulu parade to find a parking spot and drove through some "interesting" neighbourhoods...lol.

 

[Finnatic]

BJD,
My BIL is retired from NASA and working as a consultant and also a diver. One of my hobbies is the stock market. It was my extreme misfortune to be in Houston on my way to a seminar when the shuttle failed. We were literally at the breakfast table preparing to leave when the news flashed and all hell broke loose. Needless to say, we did not make the seminar. The deceased astronauts were all known personally by my BIL. What does any of this have to do with the original thread?? nothing...oh yeah..don't forget the dive watch, and depth guage.

 

[Finnatic]

Hey Finnatic - I managed to experience my first carnival before I moved to NY in March this year. My ex-wife wouldn't let me attend any of the parades south of Lake Pontchartrain so obviously I headed down to Bourbon St this year just to see why she wouldn't It took me ages to find a way past the Zulu parade to find a parking spot and drove through some "interesting" neighbourhoods...lol.

Far X....you experienced a tourist type Mardi Gras :0 Here in the outback, a cotillion of masked horsemen thunder up to demand a gift for the feast. At the feast, there is the traditional french music..zydeco..just awesome..and a feast from the neighborhood so to speak... I hope you do not think what you experienced is the "real deal". I have never been to a Mardi Gras in New Orleans...and I never will. It is a circus for the tourists.

 

[BigJetDriver]

The real truth is that no computer can sample the all conditions that make up your dive and calculate now that affects your decompression requirements.

Now, the thinking brain can take much more into account than the lowly dive computer and can adjust the dive accordingly.

And the thinking brain can be trained to do it so automatically that it really is no mental feat at all.

Comparing the complexity of flying a 777 to scuba diving just to wow the crowd into buying computers is silly. But most folks are silly enough to be impressed by it so I'm going to buy stock in Suunto.

Tovarisch Oncle Pug,

"Poppy-cock, you say?" Gadzooks, sir. The real REAL truth is that the computer can sample your position in the water column, mark the time, and re-calculate the deco requirements according to its built-in algorithm much faster than you, Uncle Pug, or me, or ANY human being. It can do the repetitive math MUCH faster, and with no mistakes. If you are going to claim that is not so, you will next be wanting us to use a "wet abacus" and do it by hand-job!

If the thinking brain: "can be trained to do it so automatically that it really is no mental feat at all..." then we will very shortly have pilots flying the space shuttle by hand,...if that is really true. Somehow, though, I doubt it seriously!

You are only right about the GIGO part of it IF, and ONLY if the bult-in algorithm is faulty. Your argument there is with Haldane, Buhlmann, Wienke, or the boffins at DCIEM (now DRDC).

As for what is silly, I don't sell computers. I just use them. I have several, but I did not mention them in the previous discussion. The right ones are damn handy tools IF you have the education to use them properly.

Do I think people should use wet computers in their diving. Yes, absolutely. They are nothing but good tools. Do I believe they should understand the science, and practice behind the algorithms in the computer before they use the tool? Again, a resounding YES! Absolutely!

My analogy between the 777 and wet computers is apt, nevertheless. Advanced tools, and an advanced understanding of their use, make any job easier, faster, and, in the end, better. The modern generation understands the truth of the last statement, having grown up with computers in their laps! THEY will make the decision,....and I do not think they will be killing the machine any time soon,---
IF EVER!!! :11:

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(Before anyone gets cranked up, let me make it most plain that I view the Ancient and Honourable Uncle Pug as an intelligent man and a person of considerable diving experience! He is also a most literate and amusing writer. If you had howled with laughter, as I have, at some of his diving stories, you would know that is so.)

(We simply have differing views about what is actually a fait accompli in the modern world, the "wet" or diving computer. I would say that he wants to return to the Stone Age and, as the Luddites would have it, to "Kill the evil machine!")

(He would say: "CRYB"!---N'est pas, mon amie???)