Dive computers... SO many choices!

[Diving Dubai]

I'll try and break this down

Do you want wrist or console mount.

If you choose wrist, then do you want to wear it 24/7 as a watch or will a bigger "puck" size be okay

If you want to go down the colour scree route, then these are bigger still. However they benefit from being easier to read and visible in different conditions. The back lights (or florescent screens on other computers are not great yet okay for normal day use and the occasional night dive).

Yes AI. I like it and was a driving force for my choice. A lot of the reasons given against aren't really valid, however it does add more money.

Batteries - Watch style, AA size or re chargeable. Again all have pro's and cons. User replaceable is preferred by most, but watch style typically need a dealer to change. Look at the diving you are doing. Personally I like the re chargeable over the other two but that's just me.

Any one of the entry level computers will get you diving, even on dive vacations as typically this is what the guides wear while working.

I would try to get a computer where you can get it fixed and serviced locally if possible. Yes shearwater have a great rep, but it's no use if you find your computer not working a few days before a trip.

What sort of diving are you doing, if mostly following a guide, then why have a full tech computer with detailed deco algorithms. or multi gas? Ignore Tri mix and CCr as the cost of getting into that will make any computer seem like small change.

Often there is a huge gap between what someone actually needs and what they actually want. Also the majority of people don't care what you have as a computer (so don't buy it for bling) they care more for how you dive.

Given that you haven't even got your own reg I would buy cheap and use the money on a reg, rather than having the top of the range shiny computer whilst renting entry level gear.

But that's only an opinion

 

[Scuba Scott]

I feel your pain.

I have been searching for a reasonably priced AI computer. Many years ago I had a Beauchat Maestro Pro that did magical things like knowing if it was in salt or fresh water. It was the best then the worst computer I ever had.

I currently use a Cressi Leonardo that meets all my needs and I have been playing with (and really liking) a Cosmiq. I may switch when I figure out how to download logs into Subsurface.

What I actually want is an AI wrist computer with all user replaceable (or rechargable) batteries to include the transmitter. I would keep my SPG and the main reason I wanted AI is because I am a big nerd and I want all my air and breathing data downloaded with my logs. Time remaining is nice too.

I dive Nitrox but I think it is safe to assume any AI computer will handle that. I don't have any plans of doing any technical diving.

Also looking for suggestions.

 

[doctormike]

I'll try and break this down
Do you want wrist or console mount.

The OP specified wrist computer in his first post

If you choose wrist, then do you want to wear it 24/7 as a watch or will a bigger "puck" size be okay

Yeah, I never understood the need to have a dive computer that you can also wear as a watch. Making it watch sized is a significant compromise in terms of available data space on the interface and readability. I don't look for a BC that can double as a dinner jacket...

Yes AI. I like it and was a driving force for my choice. A lot of the reasons given against aren't really valid, however it does add more money.

Somewhat controversial, and lots of threads about this. I personally don't like it, had it for years, and had several link failures. A quick glance at an SPG at my hip a couple of times during the dive is all the gas info I need. But then again, if you (or the OP) really like AI, then by all means get a dive computer that has it.

The one thing that I liked about AI was having the gas data in the download. At this point, I pretty much know my SAC rate, so it's not that important to me any more. I can just enter the tank starting and ending pressures into Mac Dive, and it calculates that as well...

Batteries - Watch style, AA size or re chargeable. Again all have pro's and cons. User replaceable is preferred by most, but watch style typically need a dealer to change. Look at the diving you are doing. Personally I like the re chargeable over the other two but that's just me.

I don't like the idea of an integrated, non-replacable rechargeable battery. Rechargeable batteries have unpredictable discharge curves, especially as they age. If find your battery is low on a dive boat, you really have no way of fixing it quickly. I have an extra AA battery in my dry box, I can change it in less than a minute if it's low. And one AA lithium battery seems to last for the whole year in my Petrel.

I would try to get a computer where you can get it fixed and serviced locally if possible. Yes shearwater have a great rep, but it's no use if you find your computer not working a few days before a trip.

What sort of computer service would be done in any local dive shop other than changing a battery? If you have any other dive computer, and it's not working a few days before a trip, and it's not the battery, you are sending it back to the manufacturer.

Given that you haven't even got your own reg I would buy cheap and use the money on a reg, rather than having the top of the range shiny computer whilst renting entry level gear.

I don't know about that. All regs are the same from a user's point of view, while all dive computers are different. So you are better off using the same DC for every dive so that you will get used to using it, reading error messages, navigating menus, etc.. It's great to have all your own gear, but owning a reg also means that you are responsible for regular service and the costs of that.

I guess it's a question of how much the OP dives, whether or not a reg is a good thing to buy early on. But a DC can go wherever you go, and keep a record of your dives (download them anyway!).

 

[stuartv]

Exactly what type of *wrist* computer is appropriate for an advanced diver?
I want to buy something nice and suitable so that I don't feel the need to have to UPGRADE later on.

The extra features (digital compass, air integration, etc...) they sound very convenient but is it really worth the extra money?

For an advanced recreational (i.e. not technical) diver, any computer that supports Nitrox (which means, any computer currently being sold as a new, current or recent model) is appropriate.

Air integration is something you have to decide about for yourself. You should note that most (but not all, of course) of the people who recommend against it have one or more of these things in common:

- they've been diving a pretty good while and don't "need" the gas consumption data because they already know their SAC. That is probably not true for you, so their reason for themself doesn't apply to you.

- they say it's not worth the money. Well, that says nothing about whether it's useful or nice to have. Just that it doesn't fit their budget. Their budget is not your budget, so don't let their budget determine what you do with your budget.

- they tried it years ago and it wasn't reliable. Well, things have improved over the years. Modern AI seems to be pretty darn reliable (from the anecdotal evidence I've seen, anyway). AI has less failure points than a mechanical SPG - i.e. 1 or 2 O-rings and no hose versus at least 3 plus a hose with 2 crimps. Direct anecdotal evidence: I've had my Oceanic Atom 3.0 with AI for almost 2 years and over 100 dives. It's still running fine with the original battery in the transmitter and I've never had any failures or dropouts that I know of. I check the logged data and I've never noticed a dropout showing in the logged data, either.

As a newish diver myself, I really have liked and continue to like getting my gas consumption data logged, so I can review it after the dive. I also really like only having one place to look, on my wrist, for all my relevant dive data - NDL, tank pressure, depth, dive time, ascent rate and current breathing gas are all shown on my wrist and without having to press any buttons to see it all with one glance.

When I need a compass, I carry a separate one. Any computer that has a built-in compass (and I have one and had a Petrel 2, which did) has to not show other data in order to show the compass. With the exception of the OSTC 4, which is not available in the U.S.. So, I'd rather have the compass separate, so that I can see it AND see ALL the dive data I want to see all at the same time. Plus, you can get a good compass with a bungee mount for $40 from Dive Gear Express.

My first computer is one of the most common threads on SB, I assume you have read many of the others. Most dive computers are very similar with regard to options. One of the major differences is the decompression algorithm(s). Learn something about this topic before you invest in your 1st computer. Buying a computer with an overly conservative decompression algorithm appears to be a common cause of buyer's remorse. 1st dive NDLs do not tell the whole story, repetitive dive information is more revealing.

http://ads.bonniercorp.com/scuba/PDF/ScubaLab-Computer-Test-September-2014-data.pdf

+1000 on this. AI, built-in compass, console, puck or wristwatch-sized - those are all features and creature comfort kind of things. They don't affect the dives that you can do.

The algorithm directly affects your dive. You should read about the alorithms until you understand the basic differences and then decide for yourself how important the algorithm in your computer is to you. As scubada said, it seems like one of the most common reasons you see computers for sale in the Classifieds here is that the owner concluded that that computer was too conservative for them. I've seen a lot of Zoops and Cressi Giottos for sale for that very reason.

Hi Nikole,

First things first
Basically if you strip away the packaging, you really have two choices of algorithm. Something based on Buhlmann and something based on RGBM or VPM.

For recreational no-stop diving either will do but for more advanced diving RGBM and VPM have some limitations. So the first thing you need to do is to look into those algorithms a bit and decide which of them suits your needs better.

Features versus simplicity
The second thing you need to do is to look at functionality. Which functions do you really need? Obviously you will need Nitrox but it sounds like you don't really need much more than that.

You're asking if air-integration is a good idea or not. Personally I don't like it. I have used it before and my current computer can do it if I ever set it up but I find that even if you DO have air integration you will probably find it unreliable in cold water so you will still need to have an SPG anyway for a backup. In that case how hard it is to look at your console? The buddy I dive with a lot has air integration and likes it. I guess it's a matter of personal taste.

She said right off the bat no tech, ever. So, not sure where the comment about advanced diving and RGBM and VPM are coming from.

It's not only about NEED. Nobody NEEDS AI. But, for some people (me, for example), they want it and they deem it to be worth what it costs. I didn't NEED a computer that is smaller than a Petrel, either. But, I wanted one and I deemed that the cost to replace my Petrel 2 with a SeaBear H3 was worth it, to me. I am very happy with my rec computer that has AI and very happy with my H3. No regrets at all on either purchase.

Do not discount getting what you WANT just because you don't NEED it.

The OP specified wrist computer in his first post



Yeah, I never understood the need to have a dive computer that you can also wear as a watch. Making it watch sized is a significant compromise in terms of available data space on the interface and readability. I don't look for a BC that can double as a dinner jacket...



Somewhat controversial, and lots of threads about this. I personally don't like it, had it for years, and had several link failures.

I have an Oceanic Atom w/AI. It is wristwatch-sized and it shows me every bit of data that I want (not just need) to see on a recreational dive - all at once, including my tank pressure. When I can see everything I want all at once, I don't feel compromised at all by the size of the display. Why would I want anything bigger or more bulky? I could put an iPad in a waterproof case and have it show me everything I need, but would I want that strapped to me on a dive? It would be big and readable? If a certain size is readable, at what point does making it bigger and "more readable" start to become a drawback instead of a benefit?

And, AI has improved in the years since you bought yours, I think. Do you judge modern computers based on the experience someone had with something from 1991? Don't judge the present based solely on the past. From what I can tell, the only strike against it these days is cost. And, it seems that most people that knock it are, at the root of everything they say, really just knocking it for not being worth the money, to them. Everything else they say about it (with regards to use during recreational/sport diving) is fluff added onto the basic statement of "it's too expensive for me."

 

[doctormike]

I have an Oceanic Atom w/AI. It is wristwatch-sized and it shows me every bit of data that I want (not just need) to see on a recreational dive - all at once, including my tank pressure. When I can see everything I want all at once, I don't feel compromised at all by the size of the display. Why would I want anything bigger or more bulky? I could put an iPad in a waterproof case and have it show me everything I need, but would I want that strapped to me on a dive? It would be big and readable? If a certain size is readable, at what point does making it bigger and "more readable" start to become a drawback instead of a benefit?

Somewhere between a Petrel and an iPad.

And, AI has improved in the years since you bought yours, I think. Do you judge modern computers based on the experience someone had with something from 1991? Don't judge the present based solely on the past. From what I can tell, the only strike against it these days is cost. And, it seems that most people that knock it are, at the root of everything they say, really just knocking it for not being worth the money, to them. Everything else they say about it (with regards to use during recreational/sport diving) is fluff added onto the basic statement of "it's too expensive for me."

Maybe that's true (about the reliability). For me personally, I can't imagine what AI would provide that I want. However, as I mentioned in my post, if you like AI then you should definitely get an AI capable computer.

 

[turnburglar]

I have a few dives now on my Hollis DG03, and think it's a decent rec diving computer.

-Multiple gases: air nitrox and O2

-user changeable non rechargeable battery that lasts

-large backface with good illumination

-air integrated: I don't use it this way, but I know that's a $$$ feature for some.

-value: I paid $250 from DGX

Honestly the biggest 2 cons I can think of is the lack of a good product manual, and some won't like the RGBM alogorithem.

 

[Diving Dubai]

The OP specified wrist computer in his first post

I saw after, my bad - but I was just pointing out all the options.

The one thing that I liked about AI was having the gas data in the download. At this point, I pretty much know my SAC rate, so it's not that important to me any more.

Totally get your point of view. Having Data on my wrist is good for the type of places I dive where I might (often) hanging on to a rock in the current with one hand.

I'll reluctantly admit to have looked at the Time To Surface, not because I don't know by experience my consumption and thus dive time, but sometimes in a nasty down current it's been useful of if I'm deep as a reality check against being narced.

Possibly the most hotly debated subject...

I don't like the idea of an integrated, non-replacable rechargeable battery. Rechargeable batteries have unpredictable discharge curves, especially as they age. If find your battery is low on a dive boat, you really have no way of fixing it quickly. I have an extra AA battery in my dry box, I can change it in less than a minute if it's low. And one AA lithium battery seems to last for the whole year in my Petrel.

Again I see your view, but it's not something I agree with.

My Eon has had 200+ dives with multiple transmitters connected (if that makes a difference) and after 2 years no noticeable degradation of the battery - in that a full charge still shows 40 hrs dive time.

There is always the option of reaching into your dry box and finding no or a flat AA battery. Again different types of diving, I've been to places where I would have to take my own batteries for 2 weeks. Not a hassle I'l grant you although airlines are coming up with more things to reject. Since I always have a power pack for my devices its not an issue

No type of battery can prevent a user not checking their computer before a dive only to find it's flat.

What sort of computer service would be done in any local dive shop other than changing a battery? If you have any other dive computer, and it's not working a few days before a trip, and it's not the battery, you are sending it back to the manufacturer.

It could be a pressure sensor, or anything. My local shop is an authorised repair centre for a number of brands. I appreciate this isn't an option for everyone but just a consideration.


Regarding downloading data - I should have pointed out to the OP to look at the cost of any interface needed to download.

Petral has bluetooth which is good, Mine uses the same cable used to charge which is included. Some like the cressie need an interface dock which is a PITA to set up and costs around $75 ish

 

[stuartv]

Somewhere between a Petrel and an iPad.

I think it's personal preference. I don't care what size computer you have. The thing that bugs me is when people insinuate (not saying you, specifically) that anyone who says they want something smaller or thinner than a Petrel or Perdix is crazy/dumb/an ignorant newb/foolish/etc.. Why wouldn't anyone want the smallest, thinnest computer they could get that meet's all their other requirements?

IF, and that's a big if, ScubaPro releases the H3 and it's still the same basic computer as the SeaBear H3 (i.e. they don't hose it up with their own stupid algorithm that incorporates in stuff like heart rate and whatever), then I totally think it is a perfectly valid and reasonable alternative to a Perdix. The display is smaller, but I find it just as readable. It has all the basics you need for tech diving (Buhlmann w/GF, trimix, CCR, multiple gas support, adding/changing gases and/or gradient factors on the fly). And it's a much nicer form factor. And, I think, less likely to sustain accidental button presses. And 1 button press versus 2 for gas switches. I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying it's just as good by being better in some ways and not as good in others. At which point it's just down to personal preference.

 

[stuartv]

I have a few dives now on my Hollis DG03, and think it's a decent rec diving computer.

Honestly the biggest 2 cons I can think of is the lack of a good product manual, and some won't like the RGBM alogorithem.

It's not RGBM. It's PZ+, if I'm not mistaken. An algorithm that is too conservative for my personal tastes. I'd rather have an Oceanic Geo 2.0 which you can get for about the same price and which offers PZ+ and DSAT (which is what I prefer to use for recreational dives - it is the most liberal NDL algorithm I know of).

 

[BoltSnap]

For an advanced recreational (i.e. not technical) diver, any computer that supports Nitrox (which means, any computer currently being sold as a new, current or recent model) is appropriate.

Air integration is something you have to decide about for yourself. You should note that most (but not all, of course) of the people who recommend against it have one or more of these things in common:

- they've been diving a pretty good while and don't "need" the gas consumption data because they already know their SAC. That is probably not true for you, so their reason for themself doesn't apply to you.

- they say it's not worth the money. Well, that says nothing about whether it's useful or nice to have. Just that it doesn't fit their budget. Their budget is not your budget, so don't let their budget determine what you do with your budget.

- they tried it years ago and it wasn't reliable. Well, things have improved over the years. Modern AI seems to be pretty darn reliable (from the anecdotal evidence I've seen, anyway). AI has less failure points than a mechanical SPG - i.e. 1 or 2 O-rings and no hose versus at least 3 plus a hose with 2 crimps. Direct anecdotal evidence: I've had my Oceanic Atom 3.0 with AI for almost 2 years and over 100 dives. It's still running fine with the original battery in the transmitter and I've never had any failures or dropouts that I know of. I check the logged data and I've never noticed a dropout showing in the logged data, either.

As a newish diver myself, I really have liked and continue to like getting my gas consumption data logged, so I can review it after the dive. I also really like only having one place to look, on my wrist, for all my relevant dive data - NDL, tank pressure, depth, dive time, ascent rate and current breathing gas are all shown on my wrist and without having to press any buttons to see it all with one glance.

When I need a compass, I carry a separate one. Any computer that has a built-in compass (and I have one and had a Petrel 2, which did) has to not show other data in order to show the compass. With the exception of the OSTC 4, which is not available in the U.S.. So, I'd rather have the compass separate, so that I can see it AND see ALL the dive data I want to see all at the same time. Plus, you can get a good compass with a bungee mount for $40 from Dive Gear Express.



+1000 on this. AI, built-in compass, console, puck or wristwatch-sized - those are all features and creature comfort kind of things. They don't affect the dives that you can do.

The algorithm directly affects your dive. You should read about the alorithms until you understand the basic differences and then decide for yourself how important the algorithm in your computer is to you. As scubada said, it seems like one of the most common reasons you see computers for sale in the Classifieds here is that the owner concluded that that computer was too conservative for them. I've seen a lot of Zoops and Cressi Giottos for sale for that very reason.



She said right off the bat no tech, ever. So, not sure where the comment about advanced diving and RGBM and VPM are coming from.

It's not only about NEED. Nobody NEEDS AI. But, for some people (me, for example), they want it and they deem it to be worth what it costs. I didn't NEED a computer that is smaller than a Petrel, either. But, I wanted one and I deemed that the cost to replace my Petrel 2 with a SeaBear H3 was worth it, to me. I am very happy with my rec computer that has AI and very happy with my H3. No regrets at all on either purchase.

Do not discount getting what you WANT just because you don't NEED it.



I have an Oceanic Atom w/AI. It is wristwatch-sized and it shows me every bit of data that I want (not just need) to see on a recreational dive - all at once, including my tank pressure. When I can see everything I want all at once, I don't feel compromised at all by the size of the display. Why would I want anything bigger or more bulky? I could put an iPad in a waterproof case and have it show me everything I need, but would I want that strapped to me on a dive? It would be big and readable? If a certain size is readable, at what point does making it bigger and "more readable" start to become a drawback instead of a benefit?

And, AI has improved in the years since you bought yours, I think. Do you judge modern computers based on the experience someone had with something from 1991? Don't judge the present based solely on the past. From what I can tell, the only strike against it these days is cost. And, it seems that most people that knock it are, at the root of everything they say, really just knocking it for not being worth the money, to them. Everything else they say about it (with regards to use during recreational/sport diving) is fluff added onto the basic statement of "it's too expensive for me."

++1 to what @stuartv said above, except for the bit about the Suunto computers, I have used Suunto's since the 90's and have no problem with their so called "conservatism" at all. We use them in our school because they are reliable. I have many models of Suunto's console (with AI) and wrist (hoseless AI) and no issues with AI reliability at all. This is a matter of opinion, taste and priorities.

I bought my first dive computer circa 1987, it was the USD DataScan and it was AI!! Never had a problem with it at all. The only AI computer I had a problem with since that time was the "Delphi" and its successor, the "Phoenix" but the company that made them went out of business in mid/ate 90's (I think but not sure). I have always had an AI computer (with hose and hoseless) and never had a problem. This isn't a guarantee that there won't be problems, but they are as reliable as any other computer in the market.

I won't buy a high end computer without AI. I am waiting for the Ratio Computers with AI that are coming out before the end of the year. They have recreational and technical versions at different price points.

Everything comes at a price, so you need to set a budget for yourself and make a list of must have features, good to have, nice to have, wish to have if I can afford it and "I don't need/want this feature" and take it from there.


BTW, having all information in one place where and when you only have to look at one device for this information is so much better and more convenient. What is even better, is to have this information on my wrist that is easy to see even if my wrist/hand is busy and only a quick glance is sufficient to see all important dive information than having to look in two different places or to pick up a console. This opinion is what I like and what I have been using for a VERY long time and it works for me.