Dive Insurance or Not

[Randy43068]

And now our government is going to ensure certain companies remain in business despite the lack of profit...

Sorry, this rant belongs in another forum.

I agree, and I'm totally opposed to socialism and the gumment getting into private business.

 

[TekDiveGirl]

If you dive locally do you have dive insurance? If you need help will your normal medical insurance cover you?

To answer your first question. Yes.

Your second question. Mine did.

I know there is a Dive Assure forum, but since the topic of this thread is insurance, I figured I'd ask. Does anyone personally know of someone that used either Dive Assure or DAN insurance, aka got DCS and went to the chamber at the insurance company's expense? I like the work DAN does, so I understand being a member. It seems like Dive Assure offers higher levels of coverage for about the same premium. Any insurance company can look good on paper. When it is time to file a claim is when the true colors of the company show through. That's why I'd love to hear from a few people that have used either or both. Thanks.

I (unfortunately) have a bit of first hand experience with this.

Many years ago, I was managing a barn, training and showing horses. They didn't offer health insurance. I went to the ER and took a ride in the chamber once with ONLY DAN insurance. No other health insurance at all. I NEVER saw a bill.

And then June 3, 2006 I had a nearly-fatal diving accident. I did have great at that time health insurance through my job but I did have co-pays although they were very low you can just image what 19 days in the ICU/CCU -- 11.5 weeks inpatient rehab and 9 months of 5 days a week 6 hour a day therapy can cost. Add in the cost of durable equipment -- tests -- medications etc -- and I'm sure there is something I'm forgetting... it is astounding!!

For that first year after my accident I between my regular health insurance and DAN didn't have to pay a thing and I maxed out my $250,000 -- DAN gives you a year to use the $250,000. I had no trouble getting them to pay for any of my for any of my bills.

Then when I was unable to go back to work a year following my accident -- all I had to do was call them to request the paperwork to have my doctor fill out... send it in and they sent me a check. There was no hassle or fuss.

As a former actuary, I'd say that it would be easier to make a persuasive argument that the buyers of insurance are fools, rather than those who don't. Clearly, insurance companies calculate the expectancy of a particular claim and charge something more than that to make a profit. So mathematically, it's a bad bet for the insured. However, the miniscule risk that you may have a catastrophic expense should be considered--that is why people buy insurance. If you have the $50,000 to $100,000 that an evacuation and chamber ride might cost, and spending it wouldn't be a financial disaster, then save the $100 on DAN. If your medical insurance covers it (and I don't see why it wouldn't), save the $100.

A diving accident can create more bills than just an evacuation and chamber ride. (See Above)

For most of the population to have diving accident like mine without insurance would be a financial disaster leading to financial ruin.

Yes I have the medium level cover with DAN. Chamber treatments are free here, but I have it for travel in particular.

I used to have private health insurance and I asked them if diving injuries are covered. When they wrote back, they asked what kind of things could be diving accidents so I sent them a few links from google They could never give me a final answer! Anyway, I no longer have private health insurance so the issue is moot now.

I recommend getting the premium level insurance. It is twice as expensive but the coverage is MUCH better. $250,000 per occurrence with premium versus $125,000 lifetime max.

That extra $125,000 (minus whatever my ER visit/chamber ride years before cost.) came in real handy...

I have that, it wouldn't ruin my day to lose it, and the reason I have it is because I understand math a lot better than you do, apparently. If the utility that you get in terms of security or convenience is worth the $70 to you, buy it. If you can afford the $50k, or whatever it is, pass it up.

Wow -- when I took my DCS hit my bills were A LOT more than $50k.

DAN has paid over $265,000 over 2 incidents. That's a bit more than $50k

Let's do that, very simply. If the event you are insuring against could cost you $100k and there is a 1 in 10,000 chance of it happening, what should you pay for coverage? $100k/10,000 =$10 is your expected loss. DAN's actuaries have figured it out, and it's a lot less than $70.

Now, as I have said before, if you don't want to risk the $100k, or there is utility for you in the security or convenience of the insurance, buy it. Those conditions would probably make it a buy for most people, and I am not counseling against buying it. I am just saying that it is not "foolish" to not buy it--it is, for some, a perfectly rational decision.

Most people I know can't afford to risk 100k.

I bought Long Term Disability insurance and life insurance when I was working too.

I was only 35 when I bought in -- what were the odds of me needing it? On the brochure it showed old people and talked about nursing homes. Why would I need that?

Hindsight being what it is -- I am thankful that I purchased it.

 

[Riger]

....... And then June 3, 2006 I had a nearly-fatal diving accident.....

Hey TekDiveGirl, Thanks for sharing with us.

Do you still do any diving at all?

I am glad you are still here to tell your story.

Very Best Regards

Richard

 

[vladimir]

Huh? That was convoluted at best... I hope anyone in business makes a profit, and a healthy one at that!

I didn't expect you to understand it.

Wow -- when I took my DCS hit my bills were A LOT more than $50k.

I am not surprised. I did not mean to imply that figure was in any way accurate, I just plucked a figure out of thin air for the sake of discussion. It is probably not a terrible estimate of the average expense of a claim, minus the contribution of primary insurers, but one certainly needs to consider the worst-case scenario.

Hindsight being what it is -- I am thankful that I purchased it.

Thanks for your input, Kimber. I have followed your case on the Scubaboard since your hit, and I am glad you had it too. I agree with the many people who have recommended buying dive insurance. (As I have said, I also have DAN premium coverage, or whatever the $100/year plan is called.) I have a slight issue with characterizing people as "foolish" for not having it, but I hope I didn't confuse anybody by over-intellectualizing what is, in part, an emotional decision. With that, I'll let it rest.

 

[deltaVPR]

Vladimir is right in that buying insurance is a negative expected value decision. The insurance company runs the odds and determines what price levels will produce a profit given the chance that they will have to pay out. The difference is that an insurance company has the cash flow to to cover losses while the indivudal likely doesnt. In this circumstance the cost of insurance is so low the utility you gain from not having to worry about risk is enough to cover the cost.

Buying insurance does not automatically make someone "foolish." In economic terms that simply means they are risk adverse.

Insurance makes money by taking on our risk for us, on average the buyer losses money. Thats how the system works. The buyer buys insurance because either they dont want to worry or they cant afford an accident. Both of these apply in this case.

Bottom line..The DAN insurance is worth it.

 

[ScubaSarus]

It would be nice if DAN gave a renewal discount if one didn't need the use the insurance in previous years. Some insurance companies do this.

 

[joe27march]

TekDiveGirl talked me into it. Just signed up with DAN. Have been putting it off for a while.

 

[RJP]

I don't know what the likelihood is, but I know that DAN turns a profit each year.

More stuff you talk about but don't really "know" apparently.

DAN is a non-profit organization.

 

[bluebubble1995]

I can't find any information to back up the previous posters claims that chamber therapy costs $100,000-$250,000. The average I can google is $100 for 90 minutes. Are there some DAN employees on this board?

EDIT: I found several chambers for sale from $60-$70k. At $250k a visit maybe I'm in the wrong business?

 

[vladimir]

More stuff you talk about but don't really "know" apparently.

DAN is a non-profit organization.

What was the other stuff? Shouldn't you be trying to get a grip on the cumulative prospect theory that was confusing you earlier? DAN's insurance arm is a for-profit entity. Here, from DAN's website:

http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/about/history-90s.asp

1998
DAN launches "Partners in Dive Safety ? Program at the 1998 DEMA Show. DAN's Diving Emergency Hotline answers 2,312 emergency calls; the non-emergency information line and website receive 14,500 non-emergency calls and requests for information. DAN creates a for-profit subsidiary called DAN Services, Inc. which will manage certain services, including insurance products and new safety programs, such as the new "Oxygen First Aid for Aquatic Emergencies" training program. DAN Services will help provide additional revenue to fund DAN's non-profit dive public safety programs and help protect DAN's 501(c)(3) non-profit status.

We are talking about DAN insurance, aren't we?

I'd like this to be my last post in this thread--could you please stop trying to educate me about things you have no clue about. Thank you.