Dive Op Self Defense

[Scubakevdm]

I don't think a dive operator should make a judgement nor are many qualified to judge a diver's ability. I like Diver Choice Charters approach to this issue and when they book a shop they offer a comp spot for a DM. The shop then takes responsability for the safety of the divers in the water and the boat assumes the role of a taxi driver. Admiralty law assumes the boat operator is only responible for divers while they are on the boat, and possibly on the dock.

I'm not sure if I can agree with that approach, at least for me. I think that if you see a guy that seems like he's getting in over his head that you, as a reasonably prudent operator have a responsibility to protect that diver. I do believe that tact and courtesy are extremely important in situations like this, but first and foremost come the responsibility for the diver's safety.

 

[Wayward Son]

I'm not sure if I can agree with that approach, at least for me. I think that if you see a guy that seems like he's getting in over his head that you, as a reasonably prudent operator have a responsibility to protect that diver. I do believe that tact and courtesy are extremely important in situations like this, but first and foremost come the responsibility for the diver's safety.

That's prolly the better approach, but I tend to be Darwinian. Seems to me that if they jump off the boat & don't make it back, it's helped humanity by cleaning up the gene pool. Of course, the lawyers don't agree...

 

[mikerault]

Wayward,

Looks like your cat has had way too much coffee!


Mike

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm not sure if I can agree with that approach, at least for me. I think that if you see a guy that seems like he's getting in over his head that you, as a reasonably prudent operator have a responsibility to protect that diver. I do believe that tact and courtesy are extremely important in situations like this, but first and foremost come the responsibility for the diver's safety.

Perhaps the difference in perspective is that our local charters don't put DM's in the water ... a group that charters a boat may or may not elect to bring their own, but the captain's responsibility does not extend to the dive itself.

Typically a charter captain or crew member will give the briefing and help those who want it into their gear, and then you're pretty much on your own for the dive.

We simply don't "do" DM-guided dives here ... we expect divers to be responsible for their own dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[wedivebc]

I'm not sure if I can agree with that approach, at least for me. I think that if you see a guy that seems like he's getting in over his head that you, as a reasonably prudent operator have a responsibility to protect that diver. I do believe that tact and courtesy are extremely important in situations like this, but first and foremost come the responsibility for the diver's safety.

There was a charter operator who actually posted (spammed) on this board at one time who insisted that all potential customers do checkout dive with him prior to being "accepted" as a customer. After reveiwing his web page you were also required to have a full-on hogarthian rig and that all tanks must be double burst disked (for safety).
He went out of business luckily but that is the other extreme of that equation.

 

[Scubakevdm]

Perhaps the difference in perspective is that our local charters don't put DM's in the water ... a group that charters a boat may or may not elect to bring their own, but the captain's responsibility does not extend to the dive itself.

Typically a charter captain or crew member will give the briefing and help those who want it into their gear, and then you're pretty much on your own for the dive.

We simply don't "do" DM-guided dives here ... we expect divers to be responsible for their own dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

And we certainly expect that of our divers as well, and would like to clarify a point... divers are not required to go in the same group as the DM here, it is a service offered to our customers. The fact of the matter is that a significant percentage of the guiding I do is for very experienced photographers who are interested in finding a specific location.
However, there are still plenty of divers who opt to go in the DM group because they feel safer, or want to stay on the ledge, or simply because they enjoy diving with me. I'm happy to be able to offer this kind of help to people.
I'm not sure that I would decline to do this because I believe that they are responsible for their own dives. After all, I'm not instructing them or telling them what to do, but I am there in case there's a problem. Even though this probably extends my liability as compared to the way dive boats operate in your neck of the woods, I believe that it is a safer approach.

 

[Fish_Whisperer]

I am inclined to agree with you, Kev. Especially after diving three times in Cozumel now, and thoroughly enjoying the way that the dive masters really added to our experience, and yes, there was also the comfort of having an experienced dive master along, in case anything were to go terribly wrong.

 

[do it easy]

I am inclined to agree with you, Kev. Especially after diving three times in Cozumel now, and thoroughly enjoying the way that the dive masters really added to our experience, and yes, there was also the comfort of having an experienced dive master along, in case anything were to go terribly wrong.

I'm not sure what I'm agreeing with but Kev seems pretty smart, so I'll go along with that

I just got back from PDC and the dive op had a DM in the water, most of the time a DM to bring up the rear, and the groups were small- 3 or 4 divers- although there were usually 2 or 3 groups on a boat. The dive op asked for a c-card and recorded the info. The DMs asked the last dive, number of dives, and weight questions. One of the DMs even came over to check that the drink that I brought back from the bar wasn't too strong . The DMs repeated the briefing thouroughly before each dive- I could have memorized it after a few dives. By some standards, this might be overkill. It took one dive to get used to, but I didn't mind.

I think the underlying reason is how much the dive op has to protect- I'm not an expert, but I would guess that in places like Florida and the Carribbean, that the tourist dollars are quite significant and that the dive ops are willing to spend more to protect the overall reputation of safety. In the PNW, people would still be diving, even without the boats, so the dive ops don't have as much incentive (or too much competition with shore diving) to invest in high in water ratios.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

And we certainly expect that of our divers as well, and would like to clarify a point... divers are not required to go in the same group as the DM here, it is a service offered to our customers. The fact of the matter is that a significant percentage of the guiding I do is for very experienced photographers who are interested in finding a specific location.
However, there are still plenty of divers who opt to go in the DM group because they feel safer, or want to stay on the ledge, or simply because they enjoy diving with me. I'm happy to be able to offer this kind of help to people.
I'm not sure that I would decline to do this because I believe that they are responsible for their own dives. After all, I'm not instructing them or telling them what to do, but I am there in case there's a problem. Even though this probably extends my liability as compared to the way dive boats operate in your neck of the woods, I believe that it is a safer approach.

When I travel, I always enjoy diving with a DM ... because they are better at recognizing local life forms than I am. It's not so much for safety as it is just that they're more familiar with what there is to see, as well as where and how to find it.

Locally, group diving isn't done due to typically poor vis. It's tough enough just keeping track of one or two dive buddies ... trying to keep more than that together is usually problematic. This may have something to do with the lack of DM-guided dives here. Usually, if someone wants to dive with a DM here they will hire one to be their individual dive buddy.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Scubakevdm]

When I travel, I always enjoy diving with a DM ... because they are better at recognizing local life forms than I am. It's not so much for safety as it is just that they're more familiar with what there is to see, as well as where and how to find it.

Locally, group diving isn't done due to typically poor vis. It's tough enough just keeping track of one or two dive buddies ... trying to keep more than that together is usually problematic. This may have something to do with the lack of DM-guided dives here. Usually, if someone wants to dive with a DM here they will hire one to be their individual dive buddy.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I think there is also another dimension to the diving up in your neck of the woods too. I've never heard of any kind of study regarding this, but I have friends who taught scuba in the Pacific Northwest (really North Northwest). It seems to me, that the diving environment is more demanding and uncomfortable up there. Don't get me wrong... I dream of diving up there, but the point I'm trying to make is that it seems as though divers willing to dive in this type of environment are generally investing more in diving, their effort, their time, and their money then tropical divers, and that it naturally would have the tendency to sort of pre-screen divers. I think that the end result is divers who, as a group are more committed to diving, and are ultimately, again as a group better divers on the whole. I think that if you were able to take a look at the numbers of open water students that stay involved with diving in both regions, that the tropical divers would have a much higher rate of inactivity.
I certainly am not trying to imply that there are not tropical divers who aren't every bit as committed to their diving, I'm just saying that there is a constituent of folks that like to jump in a couple of times a year, and are happy with that.
That being said, I'm not sure what this has to do with the way charters choose to operate up there, I just thought it was an interesting aside. And again, these are only my thoughts and I could very well be wrong.