Divemaster AND specialty courses? Clarification

[TMHeimer]

I got the MSD cert. and have enrolled in DM for the Fall. Interesting that in the DM manual it suggests you consider MSD because if you become an Instructor you're a big step closer to being able to teach the specialties. It is also obvious that if you are a DM say without Enriched Air Cert., you are at a disadvantage on a boat where all dive with Nitrox. Another interesting point in the DM manual is that instead of the usual ad for taking the "Master Scuba Diver Challenge" there is an ad for marketing the MSD Challenge. Go figure.

 

[scarefaceDM]

The reason why a DM has to be business focused is simple really.

You just mentioned one reason among a few more. You hire a DM to be your guide. You PAY him cash for this service. Right? Thus it becomes a paying JOB. regardless of the amount. A DM is HIRED to be your guide. it is a Business.

A DM can also TEACH. TEACH a scuba refresher. a Paying job. A DM can also teach a first aid course. by becoming a certified DAN instructor. Another paying job. A DM can also do discover scubas...another source of revenu, they have to understand marketing.

A DM wil need insurance. Liability insurance to work as a DM. Either on there own or be accociated with a shop or charter service.

All this to say. The DM has to be Business minded to be able to sell him/herself on the dive market. A DM has to act like a professional at all times. Be customer service savvy. Understand marketing. All this is business related. Part of the DM course. The business of diving. Promoting good diving practices, teaching certain courses and selling dive gear or anyother material related to the dive industry.

A DM has to know what they are talking about. Know all the ins of dive gear. Understand the working of various recreational dive gear aswell as some tech gear. a DM can also be a service tec. another aspect of the Business of diving.

This is why a DM has to be business minded. Some of us do work for beer and pizza however...;D

Says who? Not being a smart ass but just wanting to know why the DM is supposed to be business focused?

To me, just a rec diver, a DM is someone I would have guide me on a dive. I wont be asking them anything as I had hired him to be a guide in an area.

Now, people going for their instructor cert should be business oriented and should have a focus on the "classes" and whatnot but should also of taken most of the classes they will be assisting with.


Now, in the future, my wife will be an instructor and at the most I may be a DM.. Maybe never even go that far. I honestly dont care for it or the agencies. But for her, she definately wants to be an instructor. Right now, we cant find a place for her to get the training because they all want her to work for free which is not on any of our schedules. Makes no sense. DM - you can go pay and take a class. Instructor? Come volunteer for a while. Just a stupid system if you ask me.

 

[DevonDiver]

I'm starting my DM in just over a month, and I'm really excited.....If I've made the decision to go pro, why would I also want the MSD?

You don't need to be a MSD if you get the DM.... but getting some further depth of training, via speciality courses, is never a bad idea.

Is the DM who has taken the deep diver specialty course better than the DM who hasn't, all other things being equal?

He is if he wants to dive in the 30-40m range.

Why do some many DMs feel that their professional rating also equates to an unlimited depth rating? There is nothing in the DM course that prepares you to dive at greater depth. Of course, common sense says that an increased level of diving ability, coupled with increased self-sufficiency, makes a DM safe to dive deeper.. but there really isn't any specific training for them to do so on the DM course.

The idea of the Deep Diver course is a safe, supervised and progressive introduction to deeper diving. How can that fail to benefit a potential DM...especially as they may be called upon to lead dives at those depths after qualification.

I know this is an imperfect question, and no, I, as soon-to-be DMC don't claim massive experience. I do not have 10,000 dives, and I don't have even 100 deep dives. I have just around 110 dives total, and probably half are deep. For my experience level, I feel as comfortable on a deep dive as I do in <20m. Would the deep diver specialty improve me in a way beyond the DM course alone? Will it prepare me further for the IDC?

Here's the shocker.... you would probably also feel comfortable at 40m, or at 50m, or at 60m. It really doesn't feel any 'different'....water is water...bubbles are bubbles. However, the subtle effects of narcosis, coupled with increased air consumption will probably mean that your feelings of 'comfort' would evaporate in an instant - the moment you had a problem down there.

I've seen lots of over-confident DMs (and instructors) breaking the limits of safe depth....and every time they do it...they get a reinforcement that it is okay to do it...until the first time they meet an unexpected problem. At that moment, they realise their brain has shrunk to the size of a walnut and their air consumption has sky rocketed to a level they could barely conceive.

As for preparing for the IDC.... just enjoy the speciality courses and take mental notes of how your instructor teaches those subjects, controls the class, presents the theory etc etc....and it will give you the experience to run those courses in the future when you too are an instructor.

Pre-IDC, the more time you spend with instructors in the water, the more useful tips, tricks and techniques you will amass.

I'm wondering if this is a PADI money maker or if there is something to it, and I should reconsider the specialties.

I think it is probably a gesture of good-will on behalf of the dive center. PADI only make money from the certifications (a small precentage)....and any discount would come from the profits of the dive center concerned.

I did my DM in the UK and part of the package was that I could apply for any speciality courses that I assisted an instructor with (and completed knowledge reviews for). I gained several specialities during my DM course and I can only say they served to give me a wider breadth of understanding...and more exposure to the PADI system (which is what you need if you are going to do an IDC)

The instructor specialties make more sense to me, but not specialties at the DM level.

Some instructor specialities require that you have the diver qualifications as a pre-requisite (for instance Nitrox). Others simply need you to show logged proof of experience for the application. Alternatively, you can pay more money to the Course Director and be taught to teach specialities that you have insufficient experience in.

Depending on what is available to you, I would definitely recommend the following:

Nitrox (you must have this, to teach it). As a DM you may need to lead divers using Nitrox...so you must understand it. The theory on partial pressures and maximum depth calculations will help you greatly with your DM physics theory.

Deep officially, you are only certified to 30m UNLESS you've done this course. Learning to work with air consumption (SAC calculations) is another help when it comes to DM theory lessons....

Wreck You shouldn't be penetrating wrecks unless you know how to lay line, evaluate penetrations, prevent silt-outs etc. This course should also help develop your risk assessment skills.

O2 Provider A great course if it is available as a speciality at the dive center. Every scuba professional should (must) be able to utilise O2.

Equipment Specialist Another great course, if it is taught by an instructor/technician who can really educate you (beyond the PADI basics) on the function and maintanence of regulators, bcds and compressors etc

Multi-Level/Computer This can be a thread-bare course, or it can be used to educate potential dive leaders on how best to profile their dives so that they can maximise the air duration of customers, whilst minimising the risk of DCS through slow ascents during the mid-later portions of the dives with the concluding 3rd of the dive spent in shallow water. It can be combined very well with the learning of some basic decompression theory.

Photo/Video courses In tourist destinations, many DMs supplement their incomes by working as photographers/videographers for customers.

Tech Basics yes, there is now a PADI 'Tech' Intro...that is a speciality course. It will show you some stuff on kit configurations, diving twins...and some theory on how to complete decompression stops (and many...most DMs have accidentally strayed into deco situations when diving non-stop all day every day). It doesn't qualify you as a tech diver.... but teaches many great lessons that can be used in recreational diving.

Drift Diver Unless you are familiar with negative entries, DSMB deployment, diving in current...then this course is useful...especially if you ever work as a scuba pro in an area like the Maldives.

that was just some examples.....

 

[mikeyjoe]

Congrats on your decision to do your DM.

A couple pieces of advice from someone who just finished his - my card is in the mail:

Do as much pre-reading/studying as possible. There is alot of material to learn - the physics and dive physiology components can give people troubles. Everybody in my class said the course was more challenging than they planned on, but incredibly worthwhile.

As for the specialties, once you are done your DM, if there are 5 specialties you are interested in, then go for it, but not at the same time as your DM. I have Nitrox, peak perf bouyancy and wreck. I am doing deep in May and I may do either search and recovery or nav.....

Good Luck, and start studying.....

 

[scubadoguk]

A good D.M will get as much experience as they can not just the magic 60 dives to qualify but to be able to really help the customer, you need to have a load of dives and you get them in differing conditions and with your experience you as a diver are able to pass this knowledge along to less experienced divers as a D.M.
As a D.M you are leading and guiding so its not just about having a better knowledge of physics but to be there and help and prevent before someone is having a issue U.W how do you do that by your experience to help head off the issue before it becomes a indecent.
If you don't want to help on a boat or if you don't want to help people in class then the great thing is,there is M.S.D it will also be respected by divers and there is no one looking to you at that point as a professional the other great thing about M.S.D is that you as a diver will not need to clean rental gear or fill tanks! as a D.M its part of the scene as it is for instructors and shop owners, Being a D.M is very rewarding and does not get the respect it should its a great carrier move and if you have done it great but get some experience and have a blast.

 

[scubasully]

Thanks to all who have replied.

If that is the case, and you are planning at that point to complete your Master Scuba Diver Trainer Prep, then you need the specialty diver certifications before you can get the instructor certifications.

This is news to me. So thanks. I didn't realize that the specialties offered for MSD that can be taken during DM are what I would have to take eventually anyway if I ever want to be an MSDT. I thought that those specialty instructor courses were different, more advanced. But it sounds like you're saying that in order to take those specialty instructor courses, you have to take the specialty courses first. Got it. Makes sense.

It says on the PADI page about the DM cert:

Working closely with a PADI Instructor, in this program you expand your dive knowledge and hone your skills to the professional level.

I figured honing skills met honing skills. That's why I didn't think I needed to pay an extra sum to hone skills. But to hone skills more - sure, I get that.

I asked if the DM who has taken the deep diver specialty course is better than the DM who hasn't, all other things being equal.

He is if he wants to dive in the 30-40m range.

So someone with 60 deep dives in the 30-40 m range (who has taken deep diving as one of the adventure focuses) is not as good as someone who has 60 deep dives in the 30-40 m range who takes the specialty during the DM. Fair enough. Two more dives or three more deep dives makes one have two or three more dives of experience. Every dive gives more experience. I get that. And I can see that it's worth $50 or $60. That's less than what I'd pay for 2 or 3 dives at a resort, being led by a good instructor.

Why do some many DMs feel that their professional rating also equates to an unlimited depth rating? There is nothing in the DM course that prepares you to dive at greater depth. Of course, common sense says that an increased level of diving ability, coupled with increased self-sufficiency, makes a DM safe to dive deeper.. but there really isn't any specific training for them to do so on the DM course.

I don't feel that a professional rating equates an unlimited depth rating, and I don't think I said that. However, I think a pro rating means I'm rated to 40 m. It should. It certainly should if that's not what it means. The term divemaster implies you have more than a cursory knowledge of diving. Deep diving within rec limits should be part of that. Again, PADI says on its site that the course is about honing skills.

About specific training - fair enough. I now understand that the DM course is not specific, but an overall honing of skills. And the specialties help with specific skills. Got it. Specialty=specific. To make a crude analogy to education, a Bachelors degree is a general degree, but the major is the specific thing. The DM is the Bachelors of diving.

Pre-IDC, the more time you spend with instructors in the water, the more useful tips, tricks and techniques you will amass.

Agreed. Makes sense.

The DM has to be Business minded to be able to sell him/herself on the dive market. A DM has to act like a professional at all times. Be customer service savvy. Understand marketing. All this is business related. Part of the DM course. The business of diving. Promoting good diving practices, teaching certain courses and selling dive gear or any other material related to the dive industry.

I get this. And being marketed to will help marketing to others later.

So to summarize, the specialties will

1) help me with skills that I'm still deficient in despite the overall honing of my current skills
2) put me that much closer to the MSDT
3) give me more experience watching the instructors instruct, since instruction is a future goal
4) teach me more the marketing side of the dive industry. I feel for this one, I should be very resistant to taking the specialties and then study how the instructor markets to me (hee hee hee).

5) make me a better/safer diver because the more I dive, the better I'll get.

Hmmm. I'm not sold on #5- that it makes me a better diver or a safer diver. All experience will make me better and safer assuming the DM course helps me break any bad habits I may have, that I dive within safe limits, and that I am not over-confident. But I am sold that it certainly wouldn't hurt to spend extra time on skills that have to do with saving lives (search & recovery, O2 provider, nav, equipment), getting a job (Nitrox, equipment, O2), or being business savvy and being good at stuff the tourists want to do (photog, video, naturalist).

Where I'm going, the following are offered:
Enriched Air, Gas Blender Nitrox and Trimix, Wreck, Deep, Night, Naturalist, Photography, Search & Recovery, Dolphin Rebreather, Equipment, Navigation, Videography

Of those, I'm already Nitrox cert'd and a DAN O2 provider (not sure if that DAN course is the same thing as what PADI will offer), and I have spent the last 3 years doing marine research, so I don't think I would benefit from the naturalist course - it would depend on the teacher's quals. But trying rebreathers is something that peaks my curiosity and something I'd like to learn about. Gas blending sounds interesting, too.

Basically, I love diving, and my whole reason for doing this is not to start a new career right now but to get better at what I love and be the best I can be; however, I've carefully budgeted for this course, and now I'm having to consider an extra $50/$60 per specialty. So maybe now is not the time for me.

I have to keep reminding myself that the ocean isn't going anywhere. If I spend $300 on specialties, that's $300 less that I have to spend on diving over my Xmas break in Koh Tao and eating yummy Thai food. Sounds like I can take these specialties any time. It doesn't have to be during the DM. Sounds like I could pick one up in Koh Tao probably.

But thanks to everyone for telling me more about these specialties.

Now I need to hit the equipment forums. I need a new knife.

 

[Joe-Diver]

This is news to me. So thanks. I didn't realize that the specialties offered for MSD that can be taken during DM are what I would have to take eventually anyway if I ever want to be an MSDT. I thought that those specialty instructor courses were different, more advanced. But it sounds like you're saying that in order to take those specialty instructor courses, you have to take the specialty courses first. Got it. Makes sense.

You do not. Except for EANx...and to teach Cavern you have to be full cave. All the others you can use one of two methods to apply for them. Neither requires having the specialty cert first.

 

[Steve50]

You do not. Except for EANx...and to teach Cavern you have to be full cave. All the others you can use one of two methods to apply for them. Neither requires having the specialty cert first.

Joe just wanted to let you know that somebody's listening to you

 

[Joe-Diver]

Joe just wanted to let you know that somebody's listening to you

Thanks Steve...fixin to bail on this thread.....

 

[bane51031]

I finished my DM last fall and am heading to the IDC in 3 weeks, IMO concentrate on the DM course and remember to ask questions, the instructor is there to take you under his wing as a mentor role and guide you, if you need improvement they will work on it with you. The DM course will assist you in learnng to plan,assist in the teaching setting as well as plan/assist divers during dives.

I did alot of diving,humped alot of gear but, also learned alot not to mention improved my confidence in my skills.The first time I took a couple of divers out for a tour of the lake I just prayed I would get back near the boat and I was able to come right back to the anchor line much to my relief, now it is no big deal but, the confidence I gained was from the realtime training I recieved. Once I get my OWSI done then I will focus on specialties this spring/summer....Godd Luck...