Divemaster AND specialty courses? Clarification

[DevonDiver]

So someone with 60 deep dives in the 30-40 m range (who has taken deep diving as one of the adventure focuses) is not as good as someone who has 60 deep dives in the 30-40 m range who takes the specialty during the DM.

It isn't about 'good'. It's about being prepared. Anyone can dive to 40m without deep training and get away with it. The more times they do it, the more comfortable they will feel doing it. However, they still don't have any solutions to potential problems and one day it will bite them in the ass.

The adventure dive (part of the AOW course) is for 30m. To exceed that, you need to do the full deep specialty. Also bear in mind that your insurance would probably only cover you within the limits of your experience AND certification. So diving below 30m without the deep course may leave you uninsured (this has happened to several divers already who were left with staggeringly large medical/recompression bills to pay.

Where I'm going, the following are offered:
Enriched Air, Gas Blender Nitrox and Trimix, Wreck, Deep, Night, Naturalist, Photography, Search & Recovery, Dolphin Rebreather, Equipment, Navigation, Videography

Gas Blender is a fun course and will do a lot to improve your knowledge of the gas behaviour prior to DM exams. It's rare course also, so not many (prportionately) people in the industry with those skills.

Of those, I'm already Nitrox cert'd and a DAN O2 provider (not sure if that DAN course is the same thing as what PADI will offer), and I have spent the last 3 years doing marine research, so I don't think I would benefit from the naturalist course - it would depend on the teacher's quals. But trying rebreathers is something that peaks my curiosity and something I'd like to learn about. Gas blending sounds interesting, too.

The DAN and PADI O2 courses are virtually identical, so not really worth repeating that course unless your O2 Provider certification needs refreshing (>2 years).

Semi-closed rebreather is a bit of a dead duck commerically nowadays - as the cost of CCR units has dropped. Few schools or resorts have these for rent, so it will be rare to get to dive the unit after the course. However, it will introduce some more in-depth theory on partial pressures etc. It's also nice to know the basics of how a rebreather system works....and it nice to get a few bubbleless dives in your log book.

Basically, I love diving, and my whole reason for doing this is not to start a new career right now but to get better at what I love and be the best I can be; however, I've carefully budgeted for this course, and now I'm having to consider an extra $50/$60 per specialty. So maybe now is not the time for me.

Well, cost is everything. If money was no object, we'd all be diving CCR at the Galapogos Islands

I have to keep reminding myself that the ocean isn't going anywhere. If I spend $300 on specialties, that's $300 less that I have to spend on diving over my Xmas break in Koh Tao and eating yummy Thai food. Sounds like I can take these specialties any time. It doesn't have to be during the DM. Sounds like I could pick one up in Koh Tao probably.

I worked for 2 years on Tao. Depending on which dive operator you choose, you can get some excellent (and cheap) speciality courses there. Most of the schools are nothing more than sausage factories for churning out OW students. Have a look at Master Divers (MV Trident) in Mae Haad for the Gas Blender or Discover Tech courses...well worth the time! You can also grab an exciting wreck dive with them on the technical boat. Seashell Divers do a good equipment course (ask if you can be taught by 'Mike' directly).

Now I need to hit the equipment forums. I need a new knife.

Titanium, small and with a good sheath. My Halcyon knife is still razor sharp and mint looking after 3 years of daily diving. It can also cut through a 1.5" rope in 3 swipes (not that I've ever cut anyone's anchor line )

 

[Diver0001]

I'm starting my DM in just over a month, and I'm really excited.

Congratulations.

When I was researching where to go, though, one common thread I noticed at many of the shops I looked at was the offer to add 5 PADI specialty classes for a discount.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that doing 5 PADI specialty classes is what the Master Scuba Diver cert is.

If I've made the decision to go pro, why would I also want the MSD? Is the DM who has taken the deep diver specialty course better than the DM who hasn't, all other things being equal?

I haven't read any of the other responses yet so forgive me if I'm repeating. I'll keep it short.

- Obviously this is optional and the shop can't require you to take specialties you don't want. PADI does not require this for DM.

- The goal of doing this is not the same as just becoming MSD. As a DM you will be supervising certified divers. It would be strange for you as a DM to be supervising (and and possibly fielding questions) from divers:

• using Nitrox if you can't use nitrox.
• diving in current if you don't know how to do so yourself
• asking about nitrogen narcosis if you've only ever made one dive deeper than 18 metres
• etc etc. You get the picture.

A DM is more than just another warm body carrying gear around. If you want to take your roll seriously then you should take building up the appropriate experience seriously too. This is why some shops highly recommend certain specialties.

In training a DM, I would certainly expect them to have experience with
- Nitrox
- Deep
- Night
- Drift
- Demonstrably good navigation skills

If they didn't have this going in then that's not a problem but I would highly recommend them getting the experience with it before they were done. Taking the specialties may shorten the learning curve.

One way our shop does this is to get DMC's the tag along on specialy courses and "audit" them. You can see this as a sort of mentoring. You don't get a card but you don't have to pay for it either....

R..

 

[psychocabbage]

The reason why a DM has to be business focused is simple really.

You just mentioned one reason among a few more. You hire a DM to be your guide. You PAY him cash for this service. Right? Thus it becomes a paying JOB. regardless of the amount. A DM is HIRED to be your guide. it is a Business.

A DM can also TEACH. TEACH a scuba refresher. a Paying job. A DM can also teach a first aid course. by becoming a certified DAN instructor. Another paying job. A DM can also do discover scubas...another source of revenu, they have to understand marketing.

A DM wil need insurance. Liability insurance to work as a DM. Either on there own or be accociated with a shop or charter service.

All this to say. The DM has to be Business minded to be able to sell him/herself on the dive market. A DM has to act like a professional at all times. Be customer service savvy. Understand marketing. All this is business related. Part of the DM course. The business of diving. Promoting good diving practices, teaching certain courses and selling dive gear or anyother material related to the dive industry.

A DM has to know what they are talking about. Know all the ins of dive gear. Understand the working of various recreational dive gear aswell as some tech gear. a DM can also be a service tec. another aspect of the Business of diving.

This is why a DM has to be business minded. Some of us do work for beer and pizza however...;D

Odd.. see, from the NAUI site:

An active-status NAUI Divemaster is qualified to organize and conduct dives for certified divers if the diving activities and locale approximate those in which the Divemaster is trained. Additional training, knowledge or experience is necessary for the Divemaster who desires to organize highly specialized activities, such as wreck penetration, cavern or ice dives or enter a new locale.

An active-status NAUI Divemaster is qualified to organize and conduct NAUI Recognition (such as International Diver) and Experience Programs (such as Stingray Experience) and award appropriate recognition materials to participants.

An active-status NAUI Divemaster is qualified to assist an active-status NAUI Instructor in diving courses.

If all other prerequisites are met, a current NAUI Divemaster is qualified to enter a NAUI Instructor Training Course (ITC). [Attending a NAUI Instructor Preparatory Program (PREP) and NAUI Assistant Instructor certification are recommended prior to attending an ITC.]

It doest not mention one bit about a DM being able to TEACH. To me "instructor" means you can TEACH but Dive Master just means you have more training on scuba than I. Not really that you are qualified to teach. I have seen quite a few instructors that do not know how to teach but can regurgitate information.

As for the "business" of it all - You are getting far more into it than say most DMs. from what I have seen, many people, avid divers, get their DM just as another course or "progression" if you will, of their scuba education. It doesnt mean they are wreck divers or cave divers or even techies..

Insurance? again. You are far more into it than most. and keep in mind that other countries dont go by "our" rules of being covered 100% in every situation.

If I hired a DM, I would expect him or her to be able to get me to the location I wanted to dive, navigate me around (I could nav myself but why? I hired someone else to do it!), then get me back. I would not expect them to be there to instruct me with anything. How he did "business" is entirely btw he and I. Maybe I paid him cash.. Maybe I bought them dinner?

My point being that PutAnotherDollarIn seems to really focus on making everyone pay more and more for something that they dont need or in some cases want.


30m is what? 90 ft? Why just a shallow limit? NAUIs basic OW cert is good for rec limits. 130ft.

Anyways.. DM should not be about "business" it should be about being a better more knowledgeable diver that may in the future, get to be an instructor.

 

[DevonDiver]

ScarefaceDM.....

You can argue over the words...but Divemasters do not teach. Running a scuba review is not 'teaching'. That person has already been 'taught'...you are just refreshing them. Divemasters do not work, unsupervised, with uncertified divers...because those divers are 'untaught' by an instructor.

Teaching or Instructing...you need to do an Instructor course for that.

Teaching a DAN or EFR course is nothing to do with being a DM...it is about being a DAN or EFR instructor.

 

[scubasully]

The adventure dive (part of the AOW course) is for 30m. To exceed that, you need to do the full deep specialty. Also bear in mind that your insurance would probably only cover you within the limits of your experience AND certification. So diving below 30m without the deep course may leave you uninsured (this has happened to several divers already who were left with staggeringly large medical/recompression bills to pay.

I thought the OW cert certified divers to dive within recreational limits (130ft). I just checked my old log book, and when I did my deep dive for AOW, we went to 127 ft. I never ever had heard that diving below 30m requires a specialty class. I have never been asked anywhere to show that I have a specialty in deep diving before a DM takes me down, though I have been asked if I had any experience in deep diving. I've never read anywhere on my DAN insurance policy that I'm not insured beyond a certain depth without the deep course. I know a guy with over 1000 dives who has never gone beyond his OW cert. He's one of the best and most experienced divers, but he's a cheap bastard and refuses to pay for the AOW. He definitely has been to 40M. He's not covered with his DAN policy?

This is all news to me. Tell me more. I think there's a lot of misinformation out there because no one has ever told me this about deep diving.

Thanks to everyone for your help and good answers!

 

[ScubaRich]

Who are you and what have you done with Dave???

 

[ScubaRich]

You are correct that you certainly do not need these specialty certifications for your DM program. One consideration might be if you plan to continue on towards an instructor certification. If that is the case, and you are planning at that point to complete your Master Scuba Diver Trainer Prep, then you need the specialty diver certifications before you can get the instructor certifications. However, you have plenty of time to think about that, so I'd say "pass" on the specialties for now and focus on the DM course. Best of luck!

Who are you and what have you done with Dave???

 

[DevonDiver]

I thought the OW cert certified divers to dive within recreational limits (130ft). I just checked my old log book, and when I did my deep dive for AOW, we went to 127 ft. I never ever had heard that diving below 30m requires a specialty class. I have never been asked anywhere to show that I have a specialty in deep diving before a DM takes me down, though I have been asked if I had any experience in deep diving. I've never read anywhere on my DAN insurance policy that I'm not insured beyond a certain depth without the deep course. I know a guy with over 1000 dives who has never gone beyond his OW cert. He's one of the best and most experienced divers, but he's a cheap bastard and refuses to pay for the AOW. He definitely has been to 40M. He's not covered with his DAN policy?

This is all news to me. Tell me more. I think there's a lot of misinformation out there because no one has ever told me this about deep diving.

Thanks to everyone for your help and good answers!

Remember back to your Open Water course...and signing the 'Scuba Diver Statement' every time you book a diving or course at a PADI dive center?

Remember the words...."may only dive within the limits of your training AND experience".

Remember the knowledge review and exam questions that asked what the limitations were for the different scuba ratings?

That one line...right there....covers it.............:shocked2:

PADI Statement of Safe Dving Practices, Paragraph 2..."Engage only in diving activities consistent with my training and experience."

130fsw on an AOW course...then your instructor violated PADI standards...not reassuring.... You'll soon be learning (on the DM course) all about role-model behaviour...sounds like your instructor was far from a good role model...hence your misappreciation of diving deep.

Those depth limitations are true for all entry level divers...even Naui... "Upon successful completion each student will be qualified to dive to a max depth of 60 feet. Certifications are internationally recognized and valid for life." https://usfweb3.usf.edu/ustores/web/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCTID=2597

 

[scarefaceDM]

The discussion was about Business. Not teaching. Argue the words if you want. it is all related.

A DM can make monies( little of it) by working with instructors. Working in a dive shop or working with a charter op. Also a DM can be hired to take out clients on various dives. Also a DM, if they are more marketable, can TEACH a DAN efr course. Conduct a scuba review. This is all part of the business of diving. In which I was referring to. Being business savvy is a key part in becoming a DM. Especially if they have to promote there dive shop or charter OP. A DM is in close contact with customers. So they have to be customer service oriented..which is all part of marketing...the business of diving. regardless if you are a PADI DM or a NAUI one....if the courses cost monies someone has to teach them and some one promotes them...

On a charter I worked for a few years ago, I was asked about my gear. Why I dive a Halcyon rig. I explained it and in the mean time I was asked where I got it and how much etc...I refered them to the shop I worked for and voila...a rig sold and more...Promoting in a positive way the shop.

Then I was asked about courses. same deal..refered the client to an instructor and voila..several courses later...This is all part of being business savvy..

same deal...was asked if there were any shore dives etc and if I could guide them...organised a guided dive and voila again more marketign for my dive shop..air fills, gear, charters..all part of customer service and teh business of diving.

Anotehr point...Same Dive shop...I was asked several times to conductt scuba reviews...promoted said shop for more advanced training and again more gear...

All this...is part of being a DM and part of the business of diving. Regardless of the agency...if you do not market yourself properly you do not make money. Little money but money none-the-less.

ScarefaceDM.....

You can argue over the words...but Divemasters do not teach. Running a scuba review is not 'teaching'. That person has already been 'taught'...you are just refreshing them. Divemasters do not work, unsupervised, with uncertified divers...because those divers are 'untaught' by an instructor.

Teaching or Instructing...you need to do an Instructor course for that.

Teaching a DAN or EFR course is nothing to do with being a DM...it is about being a DAN or EFR instructor.

 

[Diver0001]

ScarefaceDM.....

You can argue over the words...but Divemasters do not teach. Running a scuba review is not 'teaching'. That person has already been 'taught'...you are just refreshing them. Divemasters do not work, unsupervised, with uncertified divers...because those divers are 'untaught' by an instructor.

Teaching or Instructing...you need to do an Instructor course for that.

Teaching a DAN or EFR course is nothing to do with being a DM...it is about being a DAN or EFR instructor.

I disagree with this.

I think a "team" including an instructor and and AI or DM or whatever are all involved in the training.

Saying what you're saying, Andy, is like saying that the goal-tender in a hockey team isn't a real player because he doesn't score the goals.

As for refresher courses. I would venture a guess that you never worked as a DM. I guarantee you that there is a lot of "teaching" that happens in a scuba review. Sadly, some DM's are better teachers than some instructors. When I was a DM I got a lot of scuba reviews from students who had learned in Thailand, which would appear to be the epicentre of everything that's wrong with scuba training. You wouldn't believe how much "cleaning up" we needed to do.

So yeah, maybe they don't "introduce" new skills but DM's are certainly involved (and sometimes instrumental) in a teaching environment in making sure students get it.

R..