Divemaster AND specialty courses? Clarification

[scarefaceDM]

Could not have said this better my self.

But I will add.....I do teach. every time I do a scuba review I am reteaching by demonstrating. Just like the instructor before me. I am doing Demonstration quality skills. Slowly reteaching what the student forgot. OW - ADV whatever the level...you would be amazed as to how much people forget and need to be reshow...rethaught how to do it right. no pun intended. oki a little.

To what Diver0001 state...
a DM and Instructor work as a team teaching. The DM reinforces what has been taught. Working with a difficult student for an example, while the instructor goes teaches the other students, the DM works with the difficult student. Teaching the skills that the instructor was demonstrating. Soem student relate to soem instructors. and Vis/versa with the DM. The DM is there to support the instructor in every aspect of teaching...by demonstrating skills and workign with students that are having a difficult time.

So to sum it up. A DM is a multi tasked, multi knowledgeable individual that has to remain a professional at all times. We are also the ears to the student and the instructors eyes.

I disagree with this.

I think a "team" including an instructor and and AI or DM or whatever are all involved in the training.

Saying what you're saying, Andy, is like saying that the goal-tender in a hockey team isn't a real player because he doesn't score the goals.

As for refresher courses. I would venture a guess that you never worked as a DM. I guarantee you that there is a lot of "teaching" that happens in a scuba review. Sadly, some DM's are better teachers than some instructors. When I was a DM I got a lot of scuba reviews from students who had learned in Thailand, which would appear to be the epicentre of everything that's wrong with scuba training. You wouldn't believe how much "cleaning up" we needed to do.

So yeah, maybe they don't "introduce" new skills but DM's are certainly involved (and sometimes instrumental) in a teaching environment in making sure students get it.

R..

 

[scubasully]

130fsw on an AOW course...then your instructor violated PADI standards...not reassuring.... You'll soon be learning (on the DM course) all about role-model behaviour...sounds like your instructor was far from a good role model...hence your misappreciation of diving deep.

I like what you have to say for the most part, but you're wrong about this.

My instructor was wonderful and a great role model. More on that below.

I don't have a lack of appreciation for diving deep. I don't think questioning if I need a $50 cert during my DM says that. I do believe further education/skills are important for different types of diving. However, I don't necessarily believe paying for a certification is the only way to achieve those skills. I've got a 50yr old friend with a bachelor's degree who has been working for as a scientist for years for the gov, and now b/c of some departmental rearrangement at the fed level, he might lose his job to a 26 year old fresh out of a PhD program. Education isn't necessarily better when it's bought and paid for. Skill building doesn't require a c-card. My friend with the OW cert proves that.

My instructor was great, and he's been a great role model. My adventure dive for my AOW was my first dive that deep; I had only been to 70 ft prior to that, but that week of my AOW (I dove all the time when I lived there), he took me on several deep dives. I don't have the official Deep Diver specialty - I maybe didn't even know about them then - can't remember, honestly - but every dive with him is always a lesson - that's how he is, and that's why most divers on the island love him. You learn so much. He doesn't just say "we're diving deep today" and drop people in the water. There's a lesson with every dive. So don't tell people that their instructors are probably bad role models without all the info. It could hurt someone's career.

Most of the info on your posts is really helpful, and I appreciate that help. Thanks for your quotation from the PADI manual. I did know about that, and yeah, I was within my training and my limits based on that. What I meant was that it doesn't say I had to pay for the Deep Diver Specialty. And maybe he told me about it - I don't recall. He isn't much of a salesman for sure, and quite frankly, I'm deaf in one ear, and so I don't hear a lot of what happens.

When it comes to dive briefings/instructions, he and I worked out a system where he'd give the briefing/lesson, and I'd repeat what I heard, and he always spent adequate 1-on-1 time with me before letting me in the water making sure I knew what I needed to know. I think he was a fantastic role model, one I hope to emulate. Other DMs/instructors have not been so patient. One of the main reasons I picked Andy Phillips at UDC for doing my DM is this: when researching where to go, I wrote to different shops and asked about their DM programs, I'd always write about being deaf in one ear and the special needs I have for instruction, and would they be able to accommodate me, and of course no one wrote back and said no, they couldn't. What they did say was, "no problem" and nothing else about it, subject closed. Andy Phillips at UDC wrote back a really excellent and very reassuring letter that showed me not only does he acknowledge my issue but he takes it seriously and he outlined the experience he personally has with deaf divers. A couple other places did, too, name BV in KT - Darius. I need to be sure that I have an instructor as patient with me during my DM as my instructor on St. Kitts was. I don't hear over a boat engine, I don't hear over background noise, I am not a perfect lip reader, and diving is serious business. I need to be sure I know the plan, any special instructions, and further elucidations from the instructor on what I've read in the book. I need to be sure that the instructor is paying attention to whether or not I'm looking at him when s/he speaks to me. If my head is turned when the DM/instructor says, "by the way, there's a strong current so be really careful," I will not know that was said and will not have the mental prep for that scenario that I should have. I recently did an AAUS course in Alaska, and I'd be in the water putting my fins on, and one of the instructors would be remaining on shore watching, and it seemed like every time I'd get in the water, she'd yell something at me - I had no idea what. Waves were lapping, people were talking, and I was wearing a 7mm hood! I'd shout every time, "I'm deaf, I can't hear you." She never caught on. She did this every dive of every day. Great diver, great instructor for the hearing, but I wanted to be sure that's not my experience for my DM. I got spoiled in SK.

Thanks for listening.

 

[DevonDiver]

I like what you have to say for the most part, but you're wrong about this.

My instructor was wonderful and a great role model....

I cannot comment on your instructor...however, this is what I read from your post...

1. Your instructor took you past the maximum depth permitted for the AOW/Adventure Deep Dive. This is a violation of PADI standards. Legally, his ass would be hanging out if there were a problem on that dive.

2. Your instructor 'role-modeled' to you that it is okay to disregard depth limitations, agency standards and that deep diving was something that doesn't need to be taken too seriously.

This left you with an attitude/understanding/belief that deep diving is not an advanced skill or a more dangerous activity. This much is evident in the comments I read that question the need for training for deep diving...or the support of your ill-qualified friend who regularly breaks his agency stipulated limitations.

It is easy to fall into the belief that deep diving is the same as shallow diving... and there is little on those dives that you will notice to convince you otherwise. The dangers lie only when problems arise.

As with many things in scuba diving...it isn't what you know that hurts you...it is what you are ignorant of.

I teach technical scuba diving...and dive daily on amazing shipwrecks in the 20-40m range. I have a wealth of experience and training. I take those dives seriously. I value the training I have received....and the more knowledge I gain...the more I learn to respect the dangers of diving and the limitations the need to be self-imposed.

Perhaps the biggest difference in our perspectives is that I have been diving long and regularly enough to have encountered problems on dives. I've used my training and experience to deal with those and surfaced unscathed. At this point, you have had some deep diving experience, but maybe not encountered the problems that come with it.

Just doing dives that go well only gives you 'experience' of a dive that goes well. It doesn't give you experience of dealing with problems. You could amass hundreds of dives in any given activity...and still have developed no capability to resolve the problems that are inherent with that activity. That is why training is important - it lets you experience those 'problems' and teaches the solutions for them....in a safe and controlled manner.

 

[DevonDiver]

I disagree with this.

I think a "team" including an instructor and and AI or DM or whatever are all involved in the training.

Saying what you're saying, Andy, is like saying that the goal-tender in a hockey team isn't a real player because he doesn't score the goals.

As for refresher courses. I would venture a guess that you never worked as a DM. I guarantee you that there is a lot of "teaching" that happens in a scuba review. Sadly, some DM's are better teachers than some instructors. When I was a DM I got a lot of scuba reviews from students who had learned in Thailand, which would appear to be the epicentre of everything that's wrong with scuba training. You wouldn't believe how much "cleaning up" we needed to do.

So yeah, maybe they don't "introduce" new skills but DM's are certainly involved (and sometimes instrumental) in a teaching environment in making sure students get it.

R..

1. Assisting a teacher, is not teaching. To use an analogy...the guy that cleans the toilets for a NFL team....doesn't play football. He may be part of the bigger 'team'... but he doesn't play.

2. I have worked as a DM. I train and certify DMs. I oversee the quality and performance of the DMs who work for me. I have personally conducted more scuba reviews than I can remember. It isn't teaching...by definition or by action.

3. I worked in Thailand and there are some fantastically capable instructors and dive operations there. It is ignorant to attribute criticism to a 'region'. Such comments only serve to illustrate your ignorance. The are dickheads all over the world who enjoy attributing criticism to people and places. Why join that crowd of mindless idiots? If you want to debate your 'clkeaning up' job, then lets start another thread and not hijack this one

 

[scubasully]

DevonDiver, I agree with everything you're saying, and I wish you'd stop saying that I don't have the understanding that deep diving is advanced or more dangerous. I said as much in my previous post. I respect that it's very different than diving in shallow water.

What I don't agree with is your definition of "training," that it must mean money given for a C-Card in return. I'm not equivocating "experience gained" from dives with "training." I didn't say that. My instructor trained me. For free. Lessons with dives. I did not pay for the lessons. I often did not pay for the dives. I didn't study German, but I married a German, and I learned the language without paying for it. But because I don't have a college credit for German, would you argue that I don't really speak it? That's how I'm seeing the logic.

I don't think any instructor taking cash for training makes one more trained than an instructor who doesn't - that's all I'm saying.

Of course I don't have as much as experience as you - I have just over 100 dives - and of course I respect your wisdom. While you've certainly seen more than me, in fact I have witnessed the problems of deep diving before. Two years ago in Saba, a guy on another boat got narced diving a wall and started dropping down. His buddy, a navy diver with over 5k dives was taking a pic, noticed 2 seconds too late, dropped down 5 feet to grab him up, and got bent. We realized this later that afternoon when we recognized the symptoms. It was horrible. So I get it. I get what can happen, I understand that something like taking a pic and taking your eyes off your buddy for a second can change your world. Do I know everything about diving or deep diving? No. I never said that I did. I also didn't question the need for further training - that's why I'm going for my DM. I questioned the offer for specialties at a discount in addition to my DM training - not just Deep Diving either. All of them. I started this thread for the sole purpose of finding out if the specialties were something I need to get as part of the DM. I don't think it's logical that because I've asked a question regarding the way PADI has set up it's courses that it's implied I lack the proper respect for continued education.

You know, usually SB is a great place, and the people are really helpful in answering questions.

I'm out of here.

 

[Diver0001]

1. Assisting a teacher, is not teaching. To use an analogy...the guy that cleans the toilets for a NFL team....doesn't play football. He may be part of the bigger 'team'... but he doesn't play.

I liked my analogy better. The toilet guy isn't in the field but the DM who is assisting with teaching is. What you appear to be saying is that because there's one quarter-back who makes the calls that the rest of the team isn't playing.

The janitor in your analogy would be the guy in the shop who booked students into the course but the DM is clearly playing the game.

Either way, I don't really want to convince you of anything but I find your attitude towards the contributions DM's make in training a little arrogant or elitist TBH. YYMV.

It think you're defining teaching as introducing new skills. That's certainly part of it, but if you define it that narrowly you're missing the bulk of what I would call teaching. Every time a DM corrects a fin stroke because the student is cycling or shows a buddy team how to make a turn as a unit without crashing into each other or going vertical, every time they drill a skill with a "slow" student, every time they tell a student who isn't anticipating an ascent to think about venting air out of the BCD, every time they answer a student's question then they are teaching....there are hundreds of teaching moments in a scuba course beyond the introduction of new skills.

Perhaps you believe that it's only teaching if an instructor does these things? I certainly don't. To my way of thinking teaching a group to dive is a team effort. I wouldn't field a football team with a quarter back and a janitor either.

R..

 

[DevonDiver]

Either way, I don't really want to convince you of anything but I find your attitude towards the contributions DM's make in training a little arrogant or elitist TBH. YYMV. Perhaps you believe that it's only teaching if an instructor does these things? I certainly don't. To my way of thinking teaching a group to dive is a team effort. I wouldn't field a football team with a quarter back and a janitor either.

I don't mean to appear elitist. I just don't want DMs to start feel they have any sort of 'teaching status'. There is nothing on the DM course that instructs candidates on how to 'teach'....that is the job of an IDC.

Just find me one reference in the DM manual that describes the duties of a DM as a scuba educator? Skin diving, yes. Snorkelling yes. Scuba, no.

Also, I don't mean to appear arrogant, but I have most worked in Asia...where instructors don't have the luxury of being assisted by DMs. We do a perfectly fine job without them..... so I guess the quaterback can play alone. ha ha

 

[DevonDiver]

DevonDiver, I agree with everything you're saying, and I wish you'd stop saying that I don't have the understanding that deep diving is advanced or more dangerous. I said as much in my previous post. I respect that it's very different than diving in shallow water.

I guessed that...or you wouldn't have had the interest and motivation to seek further info on the forum. Please understand, that I am generalizing, not speaking of you.

However, it is also important to accept that one's appreciation of the subtleties of diving never stop increasing...unless we stop looking, asking and learning.

There were times in my diving career that I started to feel I 'knew' something...and then I learnt more...had my eyes opened more. The more I learnt, the less I felt I knew. This is especially true of deep and wreck diving....

What I don't agree with is your definition of "training," that it must mean money given for a C-Card in return. I'm not equivocating "experience gained" from dives with "training." I didn't say that. My instructor trained me. For free.

You are correct. It is important to differtiate between 'certification' and 'qualification'.

Training = qualified
Training + money to an agency = certified

Being qualified is enough. However, most insurance and diving companies will go by your certification.

I don't think any instructor taking cash for training makes one more trained than an instructor who doesn't - that's all I'm saying.

If your instructor works for free that is great. Although this is normally only the case with instructors who also have a full-time job to pay the rent.

So many people who criticize the costs of diving fail to appreciate that most instructors have rent to pay...and dive shops make shocking low profit margins. These divers who are too tight-fisted to pay for training etc etc...they are the ones killing the industry and putting good instructors off teaching because of the low income.