Diver missing today? 03/28/12

[gypsyjim]

You're comparing apples to string beans.

Apples and string beans have a lot more in common than either does with, say, red meat. IJS.
It all depends on what you are comparing things to.

 

[Mike]

I think that anytime we decide to engage in an activity that may require rescue, such as climbing, mountaineering, back country skiing, or SCUBA, we are accepting that we may have to ruin our day to help another person whether we know them or not.

Of course. And of course why I always seek out a dive op with the greatest possibility of avoiding being on a boat with newbie divers if I can help it.

Some interesting comparisons to other activities have been brought up - just some observations -

Rock Climbing compared to scuba - rock climbing has rated climbs, you can read the rating number and know pretty quickly if you can handle it or not
Skiing compared to scuba - same thing - inbounds skiing, all trails rated with universal system of greens, reds, blues, blacks, double blacks, scuba - not so much
Mountaineering - the activity itself is self discriminating. Out of shape, over weight, medical conditions pretty much eliminate you from taking part since you won't get very far
Hiking - is a much more similar pursuit to scuba diving. Many people with many different ability and health levels can take part. We still lose people all the time due to conditions or people getting over their heads
Back Country Skiing - another high risk activity, but unlike divers, the participants are usually very well versed in the risks and purchase equipment specifically made to help save their lives such as beacons, avalungs etc...

Scuba diving is a weird sport with the 100 lbs elephant in the room. On the one hand it's marketed as very easy to do and the broad range of participants that you see certainly show that the public buys into it. However its also a weird activity where there is an edge that 99% of the participants have to avoid crossing over or they could die. 80% of the participants take part in only 20% of the potential, never doing caves, technical etc... but the recreational side of it dances a real close dance with all the more advanced and more dangerous portions of it, with tastes such as cenote diving which dances very close but avoids cave diving by staying in 'cavern' dives. Deep diving to 130 feet dances very close with technical diving...

Scuba diving has this strange component where you're always just a few moments, feet or circumstances away from pushing past the ultra safe components and having your ass handed to you before you know it, some current conditions change and suddenly your dive is totally changed, and since diving is so safe and easy to do, you look around and on the same dive you might have some divers who will handle the changes without a problem, some who might struggle a bit but deal with it okay and some who are over their level of abilities and in real danger. Couple that with the DM ambiguity of what exactly is his responsibilities versus perceptions are and it's a real chance for a bad event to unfold.

 

[Ron Lee]

Sure, I take the risk that my day of diving might be cut short by an accident. That's one thing. But that's a far cry from volunteering to accompany to the surface every newbie that aborts a dive.

I cannot remember every dive in Cozumel. I do not recall whether I have been in a situation where, if I had to do it over, I would accompany a diver or pair of divers to the surface to monitor the situation until they were on a boat. If it ever was a reality, most likely it was divers from another group. So based upon vague and questionable memory, I would say that it is an uncommon event. Of course that may be artificial due to the policies of the dive op I use which make this scenario unlikely.

The only case I recall where my dive was impacted was Devil's Throat. I usually go through last. On one dive, two divers elected to not go down the throat part. I had two options:

1) Wave goodbye to them and continue the dive I paid for and let them fend for themselves.

2) Escort them out and north on the shore side to meet up with the rest of the group.

I picked option 2. I missed out on diving the throat part. Big whoop. It is not my favorite dive anyway.

I do not recall every Cozumel case of a solo diver ascending and ending up missing or dead. I know of three in the last year and in every case, had an experienced diver elected to accompany them, perhaps the outcome would have been better.

One example: The woman on the C53 dive last November. What if someone else had noticed that she was not going to enter the ship and decided to stay with her? Fact is that the other diver would have missed out on a dive that they purchased. It is possible that the woman would be alive today (barring a medical issue). Sounds like a good trade-off to me.

People are free to do as they wish. This incident made me realize that you can't assume that divers are going to survive a simple ascent to the surface alone. I do not consider Cozumel diving to be hazardous for the most part. There are sites and conditions that require plenty of experience or just saying no that day.

It does not take much to make these incidents far less common than they are today. I believe that it is Mike who notes that the majority of these incidents are due to a breakdown of the buddy system. I suspect that he is right. Perhaps the best solution is a change in how this situation is handled by the dive guides/dive ops. Another option is for just a few experienced divers to be willing to be proactive and do what I consider to be the right thing.
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[Dan G]

Of course. And of course why I always seek out a dive op with the greatest possibility of avoiding being on a boat with newbie divers if I can help it.

I concur.

Some interesting comparisons to other activities have been brought up - just some observations

This would be a great conversation over beers someday, because I could nit pick a bit here, but I agree with the general theme of your post.

I am not trying to compare diving to these other activities, I am taking the position that regardless of how much money we spend on an activity or time we put in preparation for it, just the act of engaging in that activity makes us obligated to help others whenever possible. I do not think this obligation is based on any law, it is just the nature of our choice to participate in these types of activities.

So now a question: Does a DM or dive op need to function similarly as the rating system for climbs and ski runs? The idea of the rating system is so people can make informed choices and then they are responsible for their choice. Since dives don't have that, how much of an obligation does the DM have to take into account our skill level when it comes to choosing dive sites?

 

[boulderjohn]

So now a question: Does a DM or dive op need to function similarly as the rating system for climbs and ski runs? The idea of the rating system is so people can make informed choices and then they are responsible for their choice. Since dives don't have that, how much of an obligation does the DM have to take into account our skill level when it comes to choosing dive sites?

This would be a good topic for its own thread. I participated in a thread about a situation related to a situation in the Philippines in which a diver was on a dive that was much beyond his ability. I was very surprised by the breadth of opinions. Some believed that the responsibility lay directly with the diver, meaning that a relatively inexperienced diver should be able to make a realistic appraisal of his ore her ability and also know the relative difficulty of a site he or she has never visited. I did not concur.

 

[cvchief]

I am taking the position that regardless of how much money we spend on an activity or time we put in preparation for it, just the act of engaging in that activity makes us obligated to help others whenever possible. I do not think this obligation is based on any law, it is just the nature of our choice to participate in these types of activities.

Isn't that just being a decent human being, no matter the activity? If I was in Wet Wendy's and Moss tripped over his bar stool and took a header, I would stop and allow my delicious frozen cilantro and pineapple margarita to melt while I checked him and possible injuries and helped him up. Do I want to let my delicious margarita melt? No, but it would be the decent thing to do. I guess I could pick a bar with hard core drinkers to minimize the chance of needing to help, but the principle still applies.

 

[citycountryguy]

I'm curious, Mike, in the experience you have gained to date, were you ever assisted by a more experienced diver who just happened to be with you on a board, or from whom you learned simply by being around through osmosis? Would you have learned that if those experienced divers decided to "seek out a dive op with the greatest possibility of avoiding being on a boat with newbie divers if I can help it?"

 

[Mike]

I'm curious, Mike, in the experience you have gained to date, were you ever assisted by a more experienced diver who just happened to be with you on a board, or from whom you learned simply by being around through osmosis? Would you have learned that if those experienced divers decided to "seek out a dive op with the greatest possibility of avoiding being on a boat with newbie divers if I can help it?"

Unless you're going to ask a lot of specific questions to other divers on your dive boat, you won't learn a whole lot of anything from other divers other than observations you might make. Underwater you can't talk, you can't see and ask a question about something. Most interaction with other divers will be on board between dives and mostly be about did you see that turtle? I wouldn't look to other vacation divers for too much instruction. Beyond the basics in the first 20 dives where there is a big learning curve and you're gaining a lot of feedback, after that there is a tremendous slowing of your education. You will be making incremental advances and adjustments for the most part, and the vast majority of them are going to be cause/effect, observation based, trial and error, reading about something here and applying it next time.

 

[Sideways]

Isn't that just being a decent human being, no matter the activity? If I was in Wet Wendy's and Moss tripped over his bar stool and took a header, I would stop and allow my delicious frozen cilantro and pineapple margarita to melt while I checked him and possible injuries and helped him up. Do I want to let my delicious margarita melt? No, but it would be the decent thing to do. I guess I could pick a bar with hard core drinkers to minimize the chance of needing to help, but the principle still applies.

See..... I was wise too go drinking with you at Wet Wendy's!

 

[cvchief]

Underwater you can't talk, you can't see and ask a question about something.

I have a slate. I am prepared!!