Diver's Union

[pufferfish]

The stickers are ready.
Seahunter how many would you like? How about one for every tank in the shop :mean:

Diver's Union

 

[seahunter]

I've already visited and read throughly the four aims or premises of the Diver's Union as well as the FAQ section.

The writer is a good writer and logical thinker. Unfortunately he obviously has no business education, no experience in retail and no knowledge of the diving industry.

He also has a very childlike view of the nature of business and law in North America in 2003.

Not one of the four premises stands up when applied to solid business practice.
His naive view of the acceptance of his proposals by the legal system is ludicrous.
I'm unconvinced by his statements that the divers stand to gain anything if his proposals were accepted. A dozen simple examples of typical diver-retailer transactions show the folly of either party following his lead.

I'm a scuba retailer and my location in Canada precludes me from the pricing guideline policies in place in the USA. While in principle his ideas may have some merit, his arguments are worthless and his approach is counterproductive.

I note with no surprise that no brand name manufacturer is on his so called 'good' list.

 

[pufferfish]

You are right about most of his 'crusade' not applying to the Canadian retail scene. My only evidence of manufacturers strong arming LDSs up here existed on Tam Dive's web site which since I last checked has been nicely updated. On the old black coloured site there was a statement on their products page to the effect that no prices would be posted online as the "manufacturers were against it". I now see he has MSRP on some gear from Mares and Zeagle but has actual retail price on tanks, computers, and wetsuits which probably indicates which manufactuers are the likely 'enforcers'. I have spoken with several LDS owners who would like to post their gear prices but they have confirmed similar bullying by the manufacturers up here who frown upon actual retail pricing ending up on the Internet. I can only laud shops in Canada who have had the gonadal fortitude to stand up to these 'restrictive' price posting tactics by certain manufacturers. Why shouldn't a shop be able to post what they sell gear for, heck they all do it for their course pricing? When I hear the owners of LDSs complaining about being bullied here in Ontario then something is wrong with the system.

This is where indirectly Genesis's petition fits in with my beefs. It is the same group of manufacturers he is targeting south of the border who actually get away with the price restraint policies there who are bullying LDS owners up here. In that regard his arguments are not "worthless" as you say. And the reason there are no brand name manufacturers on his good list is the very purpose of his petition. With consumer pressure he hopes to add manufacturers to that list over time with the threat of bad PR and/or boycott. Those restrictive pricing scams south of the border have been going on for decades but now with the power of the Internet he is able to mobilize people easily across North American to affect change. In the past this would have been very difficult and likely not possible in the hands of one man.


As for your allegations of having no business experience Genesis seems to have been an ex-CEO for an IT firm and has about twenty years experience in that business. Granted not the retail dive business but as he says these practices would never have been tolerated in other industries such as the IT business. Many other divers have commented to me that the diving retail business model is about five years behind other industries with regard to incorporating the Internet into the retail model. Unless you are on the outside looking in or coming from another industry one might not see the deficiencies and consumers beefs about the retail dive industry.

Genesis's resume


Don't get me wrong I am a strong supporter of my local LDS and purchased all my gear from this store. It just goes against the principles of free markets and fair pricing when I hear Canadian LDS owners complaining of bullying by certain distributors or manufacturers. In the end like in the music business the Internet will transform the dive retail business and those that adapt will do well and those that don't or resist will disappear.

 

[seahunter]

I only have a minute so this will be short (some would say "Thank God!".

The reason we do not have pricing guidelines in Canada has nothing to do with dive shop owners - it's against the law! If you like that then thank your MPP (that's provincial - don't thank the feds for anything!)

The only guidelines the scuba manufacturers insist on here is that scuba (life support) sales must be accompanied by direct-contact supervision by the seller. That is only for one reason - diver safety. Of course the motivation is eliminating liability. Hence the frowning on internet sales. That policy has been part of scuba sales for decades and was initially introduced by the divers themselves in the 60's. I was there! Even the OUC campaigned for it!

The same retail policies do apply in many other industries as well. What makes you think that only scuba store owners suffer from this (perceived) problem. I bought my first fins from Honest Archie of Central Skindivers in Jamaica, New York because he had the best price in the 1964 Skin Diver magazine. I met his son last year in New York. They now have two stores doing quite well and still advertise prices albeit not in Skin Diver obviously. Are you sure there is a problem down there or are the divers and retailers just not getting along?

The signing campaign should be directed at the house of Representatives.

Are you referring to Napster? Where are they now??

 

[pufferfish]

I see like myself you are 'engaged' on several fronts on this board. Note to self....spend less time on Internet and more time earning a living!

I had thought that it was illegal up here as well to have price restraints and one would think in the cradle of capitalism south of the border that would be a founding principle. But as of late there has been a lot of hypocrisy drifting north. Fair amount drifting south from Ottawa as well. I do believe if you do a search that you will see Genesis has opened up the legal front as well with a letter to the appropriate Federal agency that dealt with Microsoft's monopolistic pricing policies. He is not as childlike as you contend.

With regard to how the Internet is changing the diving retail business, no we are not talking about sharing regulators over the Internet, but I wouldn't be surprised to find PADI course material on some of the file sharing apps. I don't agree with this but that is what is going on. Instead I am refering to dive shops that have no web presence and think they will survive out there. Like it not many younger divers turn to the Internet to look for information on what dive shop to patronize when looking for a course or gear information.The web presence for better or worse is now where first impressions are made for this generation of divers. To 'let your fingers do the walking' to this generation does not mean the yellow pages but the world wide web. Stores that don't provide an informative and up to date web site will be history in several years.

About a year ago I discovered www.leisurepro.com which only emphasized to me some of these pricing issues. I discovered I could buy a Cress Sub Horizon mask for $65 Canadian and some shops up here were asking $110 Cdn. That is when I started to ask questions at different shops about pricing. LP is not a virtual store, they have a brick and mortar shop as well so why the huge differentials on prices. My own LDS also saw the writing on the wall and upgraded their website to provide good information and some indication of fair pricing. The owner has no problem with me using LP as a starting point to discuss pricing. I expect to pay more at his shop as he is close to my house, provides good service when I need it, and is a friendly nice guy. The question though is how much more? Fifty percent more is out of the question, but twenty percent more for the benefits the LDS provides me is fair. We usually meet halfway between what he wants and LP prices. Lately though he got me off gaurd when I said half way without checking his price. It turned out his price was lower than LP's price. I still paid the higher of the two prices without a problem.

So no, the Internet is not about file sharing in the dive retail business but about allowing instantaneous price comparisons over large geographic areas at the click of a mouse. This is the power of the Internet which will allow those shops that harness the benefits of this (much higher sales volumes) to thrive and those that don't to 'dive'. Routinely charging MRSP may have worked in the past when people couldn't compare prices easily between geographic areas, but now this power has been put in the hands of the consumer by the Internet.

If you want to see the cutting edge of how the Internet is going to change the dive retail business have a look at this. Air fills over the Net have become available ut:

Internet Airfills

 

[SneakyB'tard]

I'm losing my balance on the fence here...

I agree with pufferfish about the internet.

Having done studies on internet marketing and consumer trends, the bulk of new consumers are looking to the internet first before visiting a store. If the prices are not available and competitive, they will they will look elsewhere. I feel that since the dive industry is so exclusive and competitive, there should be a price finder site set up that is similar to the insurance price finder.

:wacko:


I am still on the fence though....

 

[Scubaroo]

www.divebooty.com is kind of like a price-finder site, but it's very limited in it's scope, and you can usually find better prices elsewhere.

 

[seahunter]

No argument about the importance of the internet to any business these days!
S2K has had an active web site for over 5 years. Currently we get over 800,000 hits monthly (that's 10 million a year!) on our site. I don't brag too much about it because I have a bit of an edge compared to other shops in ON and intend to use it.
I receive 75 - 100 emails daily and perhaps 20% of those turn into money.

This has not happened by accident. I've worked hard to drag people to my site(s) and now it's paying off.
BTW that's without any direct gear sales (it's coming!).

For anyone who thinks they haven't the ability to do the same, realize that when I was a boy we had no computers, we had no video games or even videos! The reason was simple - we had no TV's!!

Soon you will be able to complete the academic part of the basic scuba course on-line - but air fills?!! I think someone has a tight grip on your airline!

 

[Bubble Boy]

Gees, I would like to see Fred H work on those. Seahunter what do you think?

 

[seahunter]

Few know compressors and fill systems like Fred but he's not very computer literate. He could probably get the pressure system working fine but, if downloading the fill was the problem, you'd likely have to get a geek.

I wonder what happens if your ISP loses the connection. Do you lose the entire fill or can you reconnect and carry on?

I'm also leery of viruses in this system. Normally they just screw up your operating system but suppose they alter the pressure. It could be dangerous. A really bad virus might even affect the quality of the air!!

I think I'll stick to solid links for a while.