Well said as a true and caring professional would say it!!
Dives and dive time
- Thread starter snturner
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Well said as a true and caring professional would say it!!
Blackwood
Contributor
Were these the first two dives?
On what are you basing that?
If doing a 2 minute optional stop is inadequate, you either screwed up somewhere else or have physiology outside of the average and should reconsider your dive tables.
As has been stated above, a safety stop isn't mandatory, and isn't meant to unbend a bent diver. The surface interval isn't to blame either. The second ascent was too short for the accumulated gas loading. Period.
You screwed up on either planning or execution. And that's fine. People make mistakes. But if you blame irrelevancies, you won't learn from them...
On what are you basing that?
If doing a 2 minute optional stop is inadequate, you either screwed up somewhere else or have physiology outside of the average and should reconsider your dive tables.
As has been stated above, a safety stop isn't mandatory, and isn't meant to unbend a bent diver. The surface interval isn't to blame either. The second ascent was too short for the accumulated gas loading. Period.
You screwed up on either planning or execution. And that's fine. People make mistakes. But if you blame irrelevancies, you won't learn from them...
DaleC
Contributor
If I were a DM and agreed to a business plan that included not being able to allow someone to do a 3 minute SS in a non emergency situation I know I would have screwed up in my professional obligation. Thinking about the majority would be not creating a situation where time was that critical.
If I were a diver I would know I screwed up by placing myself in a situation where I had so little control over my own dive plan.
If I were a diver I would know I screwed up by placing myself in a situation where I had so little control over my own dive plan.
Nowhere did he say anything about a novice and the dive count (if true) would hint he's done enough dives.
Too deep, too long, failed to follow a dive brief, failing to follow his computer. Thats not a little.
Im still struggling to see why the DM is at fault for any of this? He had a customer that ignored him, screwed up their own dive, without anything from the DM and could have potentially screwed up everyone elses.
Id expect a representative of the company to promote safe diving practices and that would include informing the OP to take their business elsewhere so as not to endanger themselves and screw up everyone else.
The fact the OP made several major repeated mistakes to me is a major issue. It highlights a lack of skill or training for his supposed level and the attitude that "blame someone else" means he'll never learn.
If you screw up a dive that's your fault entirely not the DMs, not the manager, not the president. Nobody but you.
The ONLY time id make an exception to that is duty of care with a student on the course but that wasn't the case here.
I think we have plenty of wrong on both sides here (both during the dive, and in the discussion 
).
The original plan for the dives may have been somewhat aggressive -- the short surface interval certainly wouldn't have pleased me. But the divers made the situation worse by violating the agreed depth on the second dive. And it sounds as though this was one of those dive ops that runs on a tight schedule, so the divers insisting on staying in the water was causing some difficulty for the operator (we don't know what that difficulty was). The DM then handled the situation in a not-very-professional manner. But we're missing some information here -- we don't know what the quality of the interaction between the DM and these divers had been up to this time, and we don't know whether this was the first time they had dived with him, and whether they had been showing a pattern of ignoring briefings or time limits, that would have set the DM up to be more than usually irritated with them. We also don't know what the DM actually said or did -- people vary in their sensitivity to tone and wording. What I consider being "yelled at", my husband often views as normal conversation
But one thing is causing a lot of contention, and that is the confusion between safety stop and deco stop. A safety stop is an OPTIONAL pause underwater (although many computers appear to demand it). A decompression stop means that, by the tables or computer you are using, you have exceeded no-deco limits and can no longer safely proceed directly to the surface. Except in an emergency (eg. no air) you should not ignore a decompression stop, and a DM, irritated though he may be, should not advise a diver to do so. The easiest way to let the DM know that you HAVE to stay in the water is to show him your computer screen. He should then let you do your deco . . . but at least some boats I have been on have told folks, up front, that if they went into deco, they were done diving for the day, and possibly done diving with that boat.
In the event that the divers required decompression, once they were back on the boat, the DM had every right to discuss their transgression with them. But, as with almost everything in life, that discussion should have been conducted in a professional manner. It is quite possible to scold people quietly and without the use of rude language (although, when I was teaching residents, I was sad to learn that there are some people who simply don't absorb the magnitude of their error unless or until you yell or swear at them -- which is why I said we didn't have all the history here).
).The original plan for the dives may have been somewhat aggressive -- the short surface interval certainly wouldn't have pleased me. But the divers made the situation worse by violating the agreed depth on the second dive. And it sounds as though this was one of those dive ops that runs on a tight schedule, so the divers insisting on staying in the water was causing some difficulty for the operator (we don't know what that difficulty was). The DM then handled the situation in a not-very-professional manner. But we're missing some information here -- we don't know what the quality of the interaction between the DM and these divers had been up to this time, and we don't know whether this was the first time they had dived with him, and whether they had been showing a pattern of ignoring briefings or time limits, that would have set the DM up to be more than usually irritated with them. We also don't know what the DM actually said or did -- people vary in their sensitivity to tone and wording. What I consider being "yelled at", my husband often views as normal conversation
But one thing is causing a lot of contention, and that is the confusion between safety stop and deco stop. A safety stop is an OPTIONAL pause underwater (although many computers appear to demand it). A decompression stop means that, by the tables or computer you are using, you have exceeded no-deco limits and can no longer safely proceed directly to the surface. Except in an emergency (eg. no air) you should not ignore a decompression stop, and a DM, irritated though he may be, should not advise a diver to do so. The easiest way to let the DM know that you HAVE to stay in the water is to show him your computer screen. He should then let you do your deco . . . but at least some boats I have been on have told folks, up front, that if they went into deco, they were done diving for the day, and possibly done diving with that boat.
In the event that the divers required decompression, once they were back on the boat, the DM had every right to discuss their transgression with them. But, as with almost everything in life, that discussion should have been conducted in a professional manner. It is quite possible to scold people quietly and without the use of rude language (although, when I was teaching residents, I was sad to learn that there are some people who simply don't absorb the magnitude of their error unless or until you yell or swear at them -- which is why I said we didn't have all the history here).
It's pretty clear that mistakes were made and it should also be pretty clear that we only have one side of the story.
First, snturner, your profile lists over 200 dives and cert level of Rescue. Did you plan your dives?
If so, you were clearly diving your computer, why do you refer back to tables? Once you execute multi-level dives on a computer, you can't just swing back to tables to make your argument.
In between dives, did you consult your computer to _plan_ dive 2 using the computer you were diving? If so, what did your computer allow you in terms of NDL for the second dive you were planning before you entered the water. You state your buddy was consistently 10 feet above you, was that the planned depth?
Now, if what you say is true, then the DM should have let you finish your stop IMO and discussed with you afterward why they won't let you dive again (i.e. can't follow instructions). Also, as a paying customer I plan and execute my own dives (and do so within the bounds of what was discussed with the charter operator), and take responsibility for them.
None of the boats I've been on have had folks displaying the attitude you describe, most actually cater to more advanced divers & tech divers, so cutting stops just isn't going to happen.
As for all the other back & forth, sure sounds like no-one is having their minds changed, like so often happens in these threads.
First, snturner, your profile lists over 200 dives and cert level of Rescue. Did you plan your dives?
If so, you were clearly diving your computer, why do you refer back to tables? Once you execute multi-level dives on a computer, you can't just swing back to tables to make your argument.
In between dives, did you consult your computer to _plan_ dive 2 using the computer you were diving? If so, what did your computer allow you in terms of NDL for the second dive you were planning before you entered the water. You state your buddy was consistently 10 feet above you, was that the planned depth?
Now, if what you say is true, then the DM should have let you finish your stop IMO and discussed with you afterward why they won't let you dive again (i.e. can't follow instructions). Also, as a paying customer I plan and execute my own dives (and do so within the bounds of what was discussed with the charter operator), and take responsibility for them.
None of the boats I've been on have had folks displaying the attitude you describe, most actually cater to more advanced divers & tech divers, so cutting stops just isn't going to happen.
As for all the other back & forth, sure sounds like no-one is having their minds changed, like so often happens in these threads.
halemanō;5684824:
Perhaps the OP has me on "ignore" (would not be alone in this thread).
Could someone else please quote my first post in this thread so everyone can see the unanswered questions from post #13.
Until we get more details it is pretty silly to pass judgment.
Blackwood
Contributor
snturner:
Also, were these the first two dives of your trip or part of a multi-day series?
halemanō;5686407:Perhaps the OP has me on "ignore" (would not be alone in this thread).
Could someone else please quote my first post in this thread so everyone can see the unanswered questions from post #13.
Until we get more details it is pretty silly to pass judgment.
halemanō;5684824:Sorry, still need more input!
What was the "planned max depth/profile" of the first dive? Did the briefings mention anything about not spending the majority of the dive deep?
You mention a "current line," were these drift dives or was the boat moored/anchored? How deep was the guide during the last 5 minutes of the dive?
Did you spend time deeper than the guide on the first dive? Did your buddy spend time deeper than the guide on the first dive? Did the briefing mention "not" to spend time deeper than the guide?
Both dives were 45 minutes long; did the briefings mention that the dives would be 45 minutes long? Sounds like they kept to a "schedule" consistent with needing to get back "on time" for the next trip.
Do you know what brand/model computer the guide was using? What brand/model your buddy was using? What brand/model are you using?
I have more questions but that's good for starters. With regards to the "diving since I was 6 years old" comment; the way you typed it that was not said by your guide, you do not mention any problems with anybody that guide was guiding and also the way you typed it that guide never claimed to be "certified" at age 6.
In a nutshell, I have seen many vacation divers "not hear" more than half the words spoken in the various briefings on a dive trip. To comprehend plans it is advisable to listen closely to the plans and ask questions in advance if comprehension is compromised.
Also, were these the first two dives of your trip or part of a multi-day series?
Darnold9999
Contributor
Random thoughts:
Given the way the OP ignored the dive plan - got himself into deco - AND given the way he reacted to string's initial critical post I suspect that the discussion re these two errors with the DM got out of hand rather quickly. I expect there is another entirely different story that we are not hearing.
Don't think that these were safety stops as the buddy's computer ended up locking him out. Sounds like manditory deco. Is there a computer that locks you out if you skip a safety stop? None of mine do, but that is a small sample.
Some customers you just don't need.
DM was wrong to force anyone out of the water if they were in manditory deco - period. Wrong to force anyone out of the water even for a safety stop except for emergencies - getting back three minutes sooner is not an emergency.
DM was right to suggest that the OP was wrong to go into deco on the dive and to extend the dive beyond the agreed on depth and time. How that was done (again given the reaction to string) is very much in question.
Was on a boat with a couple of cowboys a while back on a liveaboard - they ended up putting themselves into deco, diving beyond 130 feet, and needing the extra gas in the tank hung on the safety stop bar on more than one dive. They were "instructors" so they felt it was OK to push the envelope - and were quite obnoxious about it. I was pissed because they were putting my dive holiday at risk. The OP sounds like he could be one of these two guys.
Given the way the OP ignored the dive plan - got himself into deco - AND given the way he reacted to string's initial critical post I suspect that the discussion re these two errors with the DM got out of hand rather quickly. I expect there is another entirely different story that we are not hearing.
Don't think that these were safety stops as the buddy's computer ended up locking him out. Sounds like manditory deco. Is there a computer that locks you out if you skip a safety stop? None of mine do, but that is a small sample.
Some customers you just don't need.
DM was wrong to force anyone out of the water if they were in manditory deco - period. Wrong to force anyone out of the water even for a safety stop except for emergencies - getting back three minutes sooner is not an emergency.
DM was right to suggest that the OP was wrong to go into deco on the dive and to extend the dive beyond the agreed on depth and time. How that was done (again given the reaction to string) is very much in question.
Was on a boat with a couple of cowboys a while back on a liveaboard - they ended up putting themselves into deco, diving beyond 130 feet, and needing the extra gas in the tank hung on the safety stop bar on more than one dive. They were "instructors" so they felt it was OK to push the envelope - and were quite obnoxious about it. I was pissed because they were putting my dive holiday at risk. The OP sounds like he could be one of these two guys.
DaleC
Contributor
I don't like the fact that I don't have an actual dive profile but going on the knowledge that the SI was too short for the duration of the second dive I would think that the optional SS became obligitory coming so close in PG's to deco (or in deco as the second computer suggests) according to the PADI tables. If this were a PADI alligned operator I would be curious what hubba bubba HQ would say about a DM developing a dive plan with those variables and not thinking an SS was necccisary (or even allowable).
Perhaps I read the Op wrong but didn't they arrive back at the boat with the group and observe them exiting the water without doing the a SS. If so, did they really over extend the planned dive time by that much? Where is all that coming from?
Why not focus on the core issues instead of nitpicking and making up stuff. The OP didn't go into deco, perhaps his/her partner did because their computer was set more conservatively. They violated the dive plan by dropping a whopping 12' for part of the dive (if that's a major infraction I'm a major general seargent major sir!). They shouldn't have done it but "he without sins..." and all that.
As Jeckyll states, we have a very different dive culture up here and I would think a charter rushing divers like that would soon be out of business. But then again, they also don't babysit divers either.
Perhaps I read the Op wrong but didn't they arrive back at the boat with the group and observe them exiting the water without doing the a SS. If so, did they really over extend the planned dive time by that much? Where is all that coming from?
Why not focus on the core issues instead of nitpicking and making up stuff. The OP didn't go into deco, perhaps his/her partner did because their computer was set more conservatively. They violated the dive plan by dropping a whopping 12' for part of the dive (if that's a major infraction I'm a major general seargent major sir!). They shouldn't have done it but "he without sins..." and all that.
As Jeckyll states, we have a very different dive culture up here and I would think a charter rushing divers like that would soon be out of business. But then again, they also don't babysit divers either.
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