Diving for Scallops at the Long Beach Oil Rigs

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Perhaps you missed my multiple assertions that this particular practice (scalloping on the rigs) is demonstrably sustainable?

Bill

I appreciate that. And this opinion is based on a survey of the rigs and number of scallops, number of divers who take scallops off the rigs, and the reproductive speed of the scallops, right? :D

Really, I'm not trying to be a hard ass here. I agree to a certain extent as I have seen plenty of scallops when I have been on the rigs. But that is now, and if the perception about the abundance of life is such that more and more divers do harvest (not hunt) there, that abundance could change quickly.

I am sure that if the boats that take you to the rigs do not want you to harvest scallops they will tell you so, and I am sure most divers comply. I am just as sure that some boats will not care and let you take all you are legally entitled to. And I wouldn't say a word to anyone doing so, right now it is up to the boat to establish the rules and make the divers aware. In reality it may be the dive ops that have the most to lose since there could be one less dive area for them to take us to. I still think it is Russian Roulette, but that's just me.

Respectfully, I don't believe this to be a real possibility/concern. I believe it to be MUCH more of a possibility we lose our rights to dive the rigs as the result of a scuba injury or fatality (at the rigs).

So who do you think is at more risk, a diver just diving the rigs or a diver taking scallops? Where is the most task loading? If the concern is liability, wouldn't the smart thing to do be to limit the amount of extraneous activity, by either the rig owners, the boats, or both?
 
Personally I am starting to develop a feeling that the debate is between photographers and hunters...not about rights. It is easy to negotiate away things you do not care about. Then defend that argument. A person in my diving group who is a photographer went as far as saying that if I was going to take a scallop on my most recent trip, he will make sure that I do not bring it up one way or another. I am sure it was an exaggerated comment/threat but that is how sensitive he was about diving at the rigs to take pictures. I feel that photographers are very passionate about the rigs and I agree the place is perfect for photography but isn't that a big enough ocean for everyone?

On the comment about hunting being risky activity note that, no shell are supposed to be brought to the surface so weight is not an issue. Also that this is an advanced dive so people with no experience at depth/current will be at risk one way or another. Lastly most hunters tend to be experienced divers since they tend to spend more time in the water than the average diver/photographer. I agree that an accident will draw more attention to diving at the rigs, but as Ken pointed out the rigs never signed anything so that they formally do not endorse or control diving activities around them. It is dive at your own risk, it is open ocean... That is how they will defend themselves in the event of legal case. Any restrictions around the rigs were mostly for national security reasons, not diving related.
 
Lastly most hunters tend to be experienced divers since they tend to spend more time in the water than the average diver/photographer.

Huh ??!!?? A handful of "hunters" have died in Northern California in the past 6 months, trying to get "the catch". I don't know of any underwater photographers that have died trying to get "the shot". Not trying to hijack here, or send this off into a whole 'nother discussion. ANYTHING can happen to ANY diver, ANYTIME, ANYWHERE, ANY PLACE. Just sayin' :)
 
A person in my diving group who is a photographer went as far as saying that if I was going to take a scallop on my most recent trip, he will make sure that I do not bring it up one way or another.

You might have offered to ensure that he didn't come up with his camera one way or another. Odds are he has more invested in that piece of equipment than you do in your catch bag ;-)
 
Personally I am starting to develop a feeling that the debate is between photographers and hunters...not about rights. It is easy to negotiate away things you do not care about. Then defend that argument. A person in my diving group who is a photographer went as far as saying that if I was going to take a scallop on my most recent trip, he will make sure that I do not bring it up one way or another. I am sure it was an exaggerated comment/threat but that is how sensitive he was about diving at the rigs to take pictures. I feel that photographers are very passionate about the rigs and I agree the place is perfect for photography but isn't that a big enough ocean for everyone?......

You might have offered to ensure that he didn't come up with his camera one way or another. Odds are he has more invested in that piece of equipment than you do in your catch bag ;-)

That kind of attitude does not help either point of view. Hopefully clearer heads prevail.

I don't think this is photog vs hunter discussion. No one has said anything about the condition of the rigs being ruined by the hunters or anything even close to that. I personally take pix but have no issues with hunters. And it's not at all about anti-hunting. It's about not hunting at these sites because of the potential ramifications of what that hunting may cause.

I agree that an accident will draw more attention to diving at the rigs, but as Ken pointed out the rigs never signed anything so that they formally do not endorse or control diving activities around them. It is dive at your own risk, it is open ocean... That is how they will defend themselves in the event of legal case. Any restrictions around the rigs were mostly for national security reasons, not diving related.

Perhaps it's time to go back and ask the rig owners what their understanding is? But we all may not like the answers. And make no mistake about it- they DO control the diving activity around them.

On the comment about hunting being risky activity note that, no shell are supposed to be brought to the surface so weight is not an issue. Also that this is an advanced dive so people with no experience at depth/current will be at risk one way or another. Lastly most hunters tend to be experienced divers since they tend to spend more time in the water than the average diver/photographer.....

I invite you to look at fatality statistics during lobster season (in any location), especially at the start of the season. Also the fatality risk for Ab divers (I understand they are free divers), but there have been several deaths this year alone. I would counter that sometimes, some hunters can get so focused on the hunt that they neglect safe diving practices (as do non-hunting divers). I would not classify hunters as "safer".
 
Lastly most hunters tend to be experienced divers . . .

Not at all true. There are plenty of hunters who are neither experienced nor skilled. "Can I take this" and "Is this good to eat" and "I didn't know" are things often uttered on dive boats by hunters who don't know what they're doing.

. . . since they tend to spend more time in the water than the average diver/photographer.

Also not at all true.

Dytis-sm, it's one thing to express an opinion or point of view and be passionate about it. It's quite another to make up a "fact" to support said opinion or view. Don't post beyond your pay grade. (In other words, don't post what you don't know to be true and be prepared to defend it and cite sources if you're challenged.) Made-up stuff will generally be slapped down quickly and firmly in this forum, and it then diminishes whatever valid views you may have expressed.

As far as this being photogs vs hunters, not at all the case. It's a safety issue on many levels. And we were lucky we didn't lose access after the Drifting Dan fiasco. Note an earlier post that talked about losing access to Grace after an accident there. Those who would say this can't happen again have their heads stuck up their . . . aspiration devices. :wink:

- Ken
 
Not at all true. There are plenty of hunters who are neither experienced nor skilled. "Can I take this" and "Is this good to eat" and "I didn't know" are things often uttered on dive boats by hunters who don't know what they're doing.



Also not at all true.

Dytis-sm, it's one thing to express an opinion or point of view and be passionate about it. It's quite another to make up a "fact" to support said opinion or view. Don't post beyond your pay grade. (In other words, don't post what you don't know to be true and be prepared to defend it and cite sources if you're challenged.) Made-up stuff will generally be slapped down quickly and firmly in this forum, and it then diminishes whatever valid views you may have expressed.

As far as this being photogs vs hunters, not at all the case. It's a safety issue on many levels. And we were lucky we didn't lose access after the Drifting Dan fiasco. Note an earlier post that talked about losing access to Grace after an accident there. Those who would say this can't happen again have their heads stuck up their . . . aspiration devices. :wink:

- Ken

Ken, do you do admiralty law?
 
Ken, do you do admiralty law?

No.

Now, in anticipation of you saying "Well I do and here's where you're off base . . " allow me to do a pre-emptive strike.

The issue here is not one of whether or not we can legally be prevented from diving the rigs or legally institute a voluntary no-take zone, etc. The issue is how do you fight illegally-imposed restrictions once they're in place? And because the diving community in under-funded at best, and there are not a horde of admiralty lawyers on the sidelines champing at the bit to do pro bono work for perceived wrongs, our collective strategy has always been to figure out ways to get along and work things out so we don't have to resort to legal challenges. Because if this ever comes down to something being implemented that we feel we need to mount a legal challenge to, there simply isn't enough discretionary money in this industry, let alone with an individual operator, to do so.

There's an interesting parellel from the SCOTUS ruling yesterday on the Voting Rights Act where they invalidated the pre-clearance option. In that case, municipalities under the purview of the order had to pre-clear any voting law changes they were going to implement. In other words, they essentially got judicial blesing before any changes could be put into effect to be sure those changes were legal and fair.

With yesterday's ruling, that pre-clearance goes away. Critics of the ruling are concerned that what will happen now is the door is open for abusive voting law practices at state and local levels that may be illegal but which now will have to be challenged in court after they been implemented rather than proven to be OK before they took effect. This will not only mean potentially costly court battles, but also a lengthy timeline where the illegeal or unfair voting practices could be in effect for some time before striken down by a higher copurt.

The same problem essentially faces the dive industry. If the rigs were to impose an illegal you-can't-dive-here ban and we wanted to challenge it in court, it would take time and money that simply don't exist. So we've instead adopted a strategy of trying to work things out by talking to the players involved and crafting agreements and protocols that we can all live with.

Now, red-instead, if you're going to tell us that you do admiralty law and then will list the points we have wrong, I'm hoping you'll also go on the record as being willing to put your full weight, knowledge, and resources pro bono for the good of this industry should your suppostions be wrong and we arouse the ire of the rig owners and need to fight them in court.

Or maybe that wasn't where you were going at all . . . :D

- Ken
 
No.

Now, in anticipation of you saying "Well I do and here's where you're off base . . " allow me to do a pre-emptive strike.

The issue here is not one of whether or not we can legally be prevented from diving the rigs or legally institute a voluntary no-take zone, etc. The issue is how do you fight illegally-imposed restrictions once they're in place? And because the diving community in under-funded at best, and there are not a horde of admiralty lawyers on the sidelines champing at the bit to do pro bono work for perceived wrongs, our collective strategy has always been to figure out ways to get along and work things out so we don't have to resort to legal challenges. Because if this ever comes down to something being implemented that we feel we need to mount a legal challenge to, there simply isn't enough discretionary money in this industry, let alone with an individual operator, to do so.

There's an interesting parellel from the SCOTUS ruling yesterday on the Voting Rights Act where they invalidated the pre-clearance option. In that case, municipalities under the purview of the order had to pre-clear any voting law changes they were going to implement. In other words, they essentially got judicial blesing before any changes could be put into effect to be sure those changes were legal and fair.

With yesterday's ruling, that pre-clearance goes away. Critics of the ruling are concerned that what will happen now is the door is open for abusive voting law practices at state and local levels that may be illegal but which now will have to be challenged in court after they been implemented rather than proven to be OK before they took effect. This will not only mean potentially costly court battles, but also a lengthy timeline where the illegeal or unfair voting practices could be in effect for some time before striken down by a higher copurt.

The same problem essentially faces the dive industry. If the rigs were to impose an illegal you-can't-dive-here ban and we wanted to challenge it in court, it would take time and money that simply don't exist. So we've instead adopted a strategy of trying to work things out by talking to the players involved and crafting agreements and protocols that we can all live with.

Now, red-instead, if you're going to tell us that you do admiralty law and then will list the points we have wrong, I'm hoping you'll also go on the record as being willing to put your full weight, knowledge, and resources pro bono for the good of this industry should your suppostions be wrong and we arouse the ire of the rig owners and need to fight them in court.

Or maybe that wasn't where you were going at all . . . :D

- Ken

Yeah, no, I'm not in admiralty. I also have a slightly different take on preclearance, but still wish it had stuck around, but that's beside the point.

I suspect there is some interpretation of law that would make the scallops and other marine life that is actually attached to the rig structure the rig owner's property, and it might serve as the basis for a liability theory if someone was taking game, specifically attached shellfish, and somebody got hurt. The rig owners are probably sensitive to that.

I was just kind of thinking, cuz I'm not in admiralty and it looks a lot like the protocols are designed primarily to address safety, security and liability, if there might be a way of keeping everyone happy if and when it comes time to renegotiate the protocols.

And I'm with you about the cost of litigating a ban, which may or may not be illegal. Likely prohibitive. Generally not a worthwhile tradeoff. Plus, there are some pretty good safety reasons to control who dives, and when, around an operating oil rig, so the rig owner might win on the merits if something went to trial, and then everyone would be up **** creek.
 
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