Does not compute but should I ?

[SeaJay]

Sounds like; "don't look at the man behind the curtain" to me!

Mike

Hunh? You're kidding, right?

Hey, man... If that's your opinion, then fine. Feel free to have your opinion all you want! Who am I to tell someone that their opinion is wrong?

But I can't see how you've come to that conclusion when DIR-ites everywhere keep inviting everyone to "Check out the information for yourself," and, "Take the class, you'll find useful information there," and "Check this out..."

Whatever. No skin off my back if y'all wanna rely on the 'puter. Knock yourself out!

Enjoy your dive, however you do it...

 

[MikeS]

SeaJay,

If the information is helpful and/or useful than it is to everybody not just those that take a DIRF course. It should be shared as an incentive to take the DIRF course not kept secret till you know the secret handshake.

IMHO the “computers rot your brain” mentality is causing more harm than good. The meaningful discussion should be about how to safely use a computer and what the limitations are. Of paramount importance is to understand how your computer works so that you interpret the information correctly and based on that make good decisions. A computer is no more likely to get you hurt than tables, SPG, pressure gauge, and bottom timer. In both cases if you don’t know how to use them correctly they’re of dubious value.

Mike

 

[herman]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Some might enjoy this thread. UP talks about profiling.

HERE

I missed that thread. It explains a lot. I wonder what happens to a dive profile kept up in this manner when the fertilizer hits the ventilator? Human nature being what it is, I suspect it will be totally forgotten. My computer does not get excited or upset and I will bet it's a lot less likely to totally botch a dive profile than a diver that is task loaded to the hilt. I would rather let my computer keep up with the dive profile and allow me to handle the real problems, but then again, thats the opinion of a rotted brain.

 

[Uncle Pug]

herman once bubbled...
I wonder what happens to a dive profile kept up in this manner when the fertilizer hits the ventilator? Human nature being what it is, I suspect it will be totally forgotten.

You are probably right... that is why it would be best to learn this stuff in a DIRf along with the other skills necessary to do it right.

Otherwise stick to your computers or square dive profiles using tables.

For that reason I have pulled the thread.

 

[ScubaDan]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

You are probably right... that is why it would be best to learn this stuff in a DIRf along with the other skills necessary to do it right.

Otherwise stick to your computers or square dive profiles using tables.

For that reason I have pulled the thread.

Perhaps I need to reconsider even taking DIRF this summer.

 

[SeaJay]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

For that reason I have pulled the thread.

Good call, UP. It's good to see that you're doing what you can.

MikeS, we really, really do want to share with you... It's got nothing to do with some kind of "secret handshake."

Can you imagine if one of your buddies told you, "Hey, man, how do you scuba dive?" Of course, you'd tell him, "Take the class." How would you react if he said to you, "If it helps me, then share it. I'm not takin' any class... Why do I need to know the secret handshake?"

That's a flawed thought process. Take the class or not; but whatever you do, learn it the right way... Learning it off of the Internet... Especially something that takes learned skill and practice like this... Is really dangerous.

Tinfo is there for you if you want it. I'm not qualified to teach this stuff (and even UP, with all of his experience isn't either). Want our advice? Learn from those who ARE qualified.

'Nuff said. =-)

 

[MikeFerrara]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

You are probably right... that is why it would be best to learn this stuff in a DIRf along with the other skills necessary to do it right.

Otherwise stick to your computers or square dive profiles using tables.

For that reason I have pulled the thread.

Good start. Now all you have to do is get the many books on decompression off the market and pull the many posts by GI that are all over the net. Also it might be best if you did something about the many conferences that are taking place and cancel some of the speakers at shows.

I just lost much respect for this board. This latest move looks like sensorship in it's most pure form. Dive planning and specifically decompression planning is likely one of the most relevant subjects that can be discussed on a board like this. Now we're goint to sensor it. This discussion had nothing to do with DIR yet it turned into a GUE commercial. To repeatedly make the statement that one doesn't need a computer to do multilevel dives or that computers are too conservative or whatever and to advise divers not to buy a computer but to not tell them how to do it without one seems rather empty.

All,
depth averaging and many other little tricks for using tables for multilevel dives have been around as long as tables have.

 

[MikeFerrara]

SeaJay once bubbled...


Good call, UP. It's good to see that you're doing what you can.

MikeS, we really, really do want to share with you... It's got nothing to do with some kind of "secret handshake."

Can you imagine if one of your buddies told you, "Hey, man, how do you scuba dive?" Of course, you'd tell him, "Take the class." How would you react if he said to you, "If it helps me, then share it. I'm not takin' any class... Why do I need to know the secret handshake?"

That's a flawed thought process. Take the class or not; but whatever you do, learn it the right way... Learning it off of the Internet... Especially something that takes learned skill and practice like this... Is really dangerous.

Tinfo is there for you if you want it. I'm not qualified to teach this stuff (and even UP, with all of his experience isn't either). Want our advice? Learn from those who ARE qualified.

'Nuff said. =-)

Your attitude may change as you gain experience. Dive planning and decompression procedures may be the most discussed topic between divers. Rarely is the answer to a question "take a class". Discussing dive planning doesn't constitute teaching.

 

[King Kong Matt]

SeaJay once bubbled...

we really, really do want to share with you... It's got nothing to do with some kind of "secret handshake."

Can you imagine if one of your buddies told you, "Hey, man, how do you scuba dive?" Of course, you'd tell him, "Take the class." How would you react if he said to you, "If it helps me, then share it. I'm not takin' any class... Why do I need to know the secret handshake?"

That's a flawed thought process. Take the class or not; but whatever you do, learn it the right way... Learning it off of the Internet... Especially something that takes learned skill and practice like this... Is really dangerous.

A flawed thought process?

SeaJay, information and advice is given out each and every day on this board without regard to the consequences of what might happen if used improperly. Take two polls - one questioning whether anyone has ever posted to a thread re: NItrox or Trimix and a second asking if you are actually certified in the use of one of those gases...I'm sure you know what the results will look like.

No one is advocating doing something beyond the limits of your training. We are simply looking for information to compare and contrast. How can I know whether the class is something I should invest time, money, and training in without a little information. I think people are tripping on the "you have to take the class before I gave you ANY information re: this." It winds up sounding like I shouldn't take at face value any information disseminated over the internet, but I should take a face value and without any additional information a recommendation to take a class from someone I've never met.

With all due respect, that attitude makes it very much look like a secret handshake thing. Also, had others used that line of thought on this board vis a vis you, I fail to see how you would have gathered enough information to decide to take DIRF...people willingly gave information in trip reports, answered your questions, and treated you as an intelligent adult that is capable of separating the wheat from the chaff.

Just an opinion.

 

[MikeS]

SeaJay once bubbled...
Can you imagine if one of your buddies told you, "Hey, man, how do you scuba dive?" Of course, you'd tell him, "Take the class." How would you react if he said to you, "If it helps me, then share it. I'm not takin' any class... Why do I need to know the secret handshake?"

I am asked quite often asked about SCUBA diving by non-divers and willing to discuss any aspect of diving with them until they get tired of it, typically long before I do. The reason I would insist that they take a class has nothing to do with any aspect of knowledge being dangerous.

The paramount reasons for taking a formal class is to be under the supervision of a qualified instructor when you undertake skills for the first time. A qualified instructor is trained in how to react should something go wrong and to observe and determine if you are doing skills correctly or if you need more work in a particular area. An additional advantage to a formal class is that it contains mechanisms such as checklists and signoff sheets to ensure that all required aspects are covered.

What I meant with my Wizard of GUE comment was expressed much more eloquently by Mike Ferrara.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
To repeatedly make the statement that one doesn't need a computer to do multilevel dives or that computers are too conservative or whatever and to advise divers not to buy a computer but to not tell them how to do it without one seems rather empty.

Only I would go a step further and suggest that making such comments is doing a disservice to new divers. Unless you live (and dive under a rock), you have to realize that dive computers are going mainstream. Not counting rental equipment, I have observed that more divers are using computers than not. So, when new divers hear the “computers rot your brain” comments they tend to tune them out. Unfortunately, these comments also desensitize them to valid concerns about using computers such as knowing how it works.

I have learned a lot from Uncle Pug and highly respect him. He perhaps knows more about diving than I ever will and undoubtedly is one of the best-intentioned members of the board. Never the less, IMHO his numerous comments on how computers rot your brain are inadvertently causing divers to dive with less knowledge of how their computers work. I have seen these comments shut down many a thread. Threads discussing how dive computers work and what their limitations are should be prolific on this board. Yet, they are few and far between, in part because members, especially new divers are unwilling to challenge such a comment from someone as well respected on the board as Uncle Pug.

Uncle Pug,

I’m sorry if I’ve offended you, it was not my intent, just the way I see the situation.

Mike