OMS also sell double bladder wings. I like the 2 wing idea also
double bladder wing / good or bad???
- Thread starter Icarusflies
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
You could consider something like this:
http://www.apvalves.com/uk/products/wings/redwing/
A redundant wing designed to do just that role.
Even in very warm water long dives with long deco can get cold in a wetsuit though so thats something to take into consideration.
http://www.apvalves.com/uk/products/wings/redwing/
A redundant wing designed to do just that role.
Even in very warm water long dives with long deco can get cold in a wetsuit though so thats something to take into consideration.
This is a very enlightening thread. I always thought (perhaps naively) that having redundant buoyancy was the standard of practice when diving doubles. But several posters reasonably point out that context is important.
While the more common technical rig is a single bladder wing and a drysuit, a dual bladder wing is also considered an appropriate form of redundancy when diving doubles wet. And, diving doubles (not singles) wet (not dry) was the specific context of the original question from Icarusflies, at least that was my understanding.
I have never thought that a SMB, or lift bag, constitutes appropriate / acceptable redundant buoyancy. While I confess that I might be a little skeptical of this approach, that reaction may just be my lack of experience using them in that configuration. (In an emergency, I wouldn’t hesitate to use a lift bag or SMB to help me surface, if that was all I had available.) Therefore, I have considered a dual bladder wing as de rigueur when diving a wetsuit with my doubles. When I leave a boat in a 3mm wetsuit with double steel 120s on my back, and two deco bottles strapped on, I feel very much like a dirt dart. I don’t know what it would be like with double AL 80s. The idea of two single wings is quite intriguing, though. I confess I wonder about the utility of that approach if a diver is going to be using doubles, with a wetsuit, regularly. In that case, why not go with the more accepted and less cumbersome, dual bladder wing?
While many dual bladder wings are huge, all dual bladder wings are not necessarily huge. Yes, the dual bladder Dive Rite Super is huge, at 77# lift – too big from my perspective even for doubles. OMS makes some really big dual bladder wings with even more lift. But, the Dive Rite Rec Wing at 51# is very reasonable for single tanks in my experience (I dive a Rec Wing with a single steel 120 and love it), therefore the dual bladder Rec Wing would be equally appropriate, and not too big for a single tank, nor too big for double AL 80 tanks, or double steel 100s. I have also used a Rec with double steel 120s (with two deco bottles), and find it a bit light for fresh water, although OK for salt water. Thanks to all for sharing their thoughts.
While the more common technical rig is a single bladder wing and a drysuit, a dual bladder wing is also considered an appropriate form of redundancy when diving doubles wet. And, diving doubles (not singles) wet (not dry) was the specific context of the original question from Icarusflies, at least that was my understanding.
I have never thought that a SMB, or lift bag, constitutes appropriate / acceptable redundant buoyancy. While I confess that I might be a little skeptical of this approach, that reaction may just be my lack of experience using them in that configuration. (In an emergency, I wouldn’t hesitate to use a lift bag or SMB to help me surface, if that was all I had available.) Therefore, I have considered a dual bladder wing as de rigueur when diving a wetsuit with my doubles. When I leave a boat in a 3mm wetsuit with double steel 120s on my back, and two deco bottles strapped on, I feel very much like a dirt dart. I don’t know what it would be like with double AL 80s. The idea of two single wings is quite intriguing, though. I confess I wonder about the utility of that approach if a diver is going to be using doubles, with a wetsuit, regularly. In that case, why not go with the more accepted and less cumbersome, dual bladder wing?
While many dual bladder wings are huge, all dual bladder wings are not necessarily huge. Yes, the dual bladder Dive Rite Super is huge, at 77# lift – too big from my perspective even for doubles. OMS makes some really big dual bladder wings with even more lift. But, the Dive Rite Rec Wing at 51# is very reasonable for single tanks in my experience (I dive a Rec Wing with a single steel 120 and love it), therefore the dual bladder Rec Wing would be equally appropriate, and not too big for a single tank, nor too big for double AL 80 tanks, or double steel 100s. I have also used a Rec with double steel 120s (with two deco bottles), and find it a bit light for fresh water, although OK for salt water. Thanks to all for sharing their thoughts.
PerroneFord
Contributor
Colliam7,
You make several excellent points. Let me make a few statements regarding my use of the technology in question.
I have not done a lot of openwater diving in doubles. Just a few dives, notably on the Oriskany to a depth of nearly 130ft. I was diving wet, and I did not have redundant wings nor a double bladder. I did take a 50# lift bag. In this instance, I knew that we would have lines running from the surface, to the ship. I also knew that if need be, I could use the massive deck of the ship as a staging area to prepare my emergency buoyancy rigging. Had I been in a different scenario, where the bottom or a subsititute for a bottom was out of reach, I would have configured differently. When full, the doubles and all my gear left me about 12# negative. This would have been rather easy to swim up from depth.
In the scenario where I wore two wings, I was in a cave class, wearing twin 108s or twin 104s as well as an AL80 stage. It was unacceptable to try to make an exit without buoyancy, and a lift bag was out of the question in the overhead environment. The parameters were decidedly different so the solution was different.
In terms of why I chose two single wings rather than a double bladder wing, it was a matter of familiarity. The double bladder wing had different areas it vented from. It had it's inflation hoses on opposite sides, and it would have gone against all my muscle memory and training. I chose to wear two bladders, one with an inflator hose about 6" longer than the other. Should I have needed to swap to the backup, everything was in a familar place, hose routing was the same and would need only have disconnected the quick disconnect inflator hose from one wing and placed it on the other. Given the other distractions I was dealing with in class, this was the more logical solution to my problem.
On a long term basis, I would not use this solution. The correct answer is to dive with a drysuit. Knowing that I would be ordering a drysuit a few months down the road, this solution was acceptable to me.
I would hope the original poster would examine his long term goals and needs, and purchase a solution that addresses that need.
You make several excellent points. Let me make a few statements regarding my use of the technology in question.
I have not done a lot of openwater diving in doubles. Just a few dives, notably on the Oriskany to a depth of nearly 130ft. I was diving wet, and I did not have redundant wings nor a double bladder. I did take a 50# lift bag. In this instance, I knew that we would have lines running from the surface, to the ship. I also knew that if need be, I could use the massive deck of the ship as a staging area to prepare my emergency buoyancy rigging. Had I been in a different scenario, where the bottom or a subsititute for a bottom was out of reach, I would have configured differently. When full, the doubles and all my gear left me about 12# negative. This would have been rather easy to swim up from depth.
In the scenario where I wore two wings, I was in a cave class, wearing twin 108s or twin 104s as well as an AL80 stage. It was unacceptable to try to make an exit without buoyancy, and a lift bag was out of the question in the overhead environment. The parameters were decidedly different so the solution was different.
In terms of why I chose two single wings rather than a double bladder wing, it was a matter of familiarity. The double bladder wing had different areas it vented from. It had it's inflation hoses on opposite sides, and it would have gone against all my muscle memory and training. I chose to wear two bladders, one with an inflator hose about 6" longer than the other. Should I have needed to swap to the backup, everything was in a familar place, hose routing was the same and would need only have disconnected the quick disconnect inflator hose from one wing and placed it on the other. Given the other distractions I was dealing with in class, this was the more logical solution to my problem.
On a long term basis, I would not use this solution. The correct answer is to dive with a drysuit. Knowing that I would be ordering a drysuit a few months down the road, this solution was acceptable to me.
I would hope the original poster would examine his long term goals and needs, and purchase a solution that addresses that need.
How do you set up a rig with 2 single wings. This is very interesting and I'm curious abouot how you would rig it...
Redwing style setup will just fit onto a plate as any other wing would. Im assuming the "2 wing" idea will just sandwich the same way
Dual bladder wings are a neater system with the inflator hose for the redundant on the right hand side. Not some thought needs to be given to all these setups about things like accidental inflation. There have been some incidents of rapid ascents where the diver emptied his wing, suit and still went up. Turns out due to a fault the redundant was inflating but nobody thought to check it. Some people as a result dive these with the LP disconnected from that side.
One that makes me cringe are the tecrec DVDs where it shows and i think advocates the redundant inflator to be bungee'd to the tank with the inflator connected. If you did that and the inflator leaked air even slowly you'd have no way of stopping it. Thats for a different thread though
As for steel tanks ive used twin 12s (90 something cu ft?) with the same size again as a stage on the diverite Classic wing and found it more than adequate. Again though, thats for a different thread.
Oh and FWIW, i dont believe the concept of a balanced rig you can swim up is effective, safe or even possible with stage deco configurations (bet that starts a fight)
Dual bladder wings are a neater system with the inflator hose for the redundant on the right hand side. Not some thought needs to be given to all these setups about things like accidental inflation. There have been some incidents of rapid ascents where the diver emptied his wing, suit and still went up. Turns out due to a fault the redundant was inflating but nobody thought to check it. Some people as a result dive these with the LP disconnected from that side.
One that makes me cringe are the tecrec DVDs where it shows and i think advocates the redundant inflator to be bungee'd to the tank with the inflator connected. If you did that and the inflator leaked air even slowly you'd have no way of stopping it. Thats for a different thread though
As for steel tanks ive used twin 12s (90 something cu ft?) with the same size again as a stage on the diverite Classic wing and found it more than adequate. Again though, thats for a different thread.
Oh and FWIW, i dont believe the concept of a balanced rig you can swim up is effective, safe or even possible with stage deco configurations (bet that starts a fight)
Well that settles it then:shakeheadUWupnorth:
PerroneFord:
Seems quite reasonable. With the lines, and the lift bag, and the deck you were pretty well covered in the event of a primary bouyancy failure.
PerroneFord:
This sounds like a creative and very practical approach. I very much appreciate the explanation.
Mark Vlahos
Contributor
I have used two wings with one of them flipped over so the inflator hose was on my right shoulder, and an all in one double bladder wing with the backup air cell inflator hose over my right shoulder. In my opinion when diving double steel cylinders you really need to have redundant lift. A dry suit is nice, but so is a double bladder wing.
I own a single bladder 55 lb lift wing and a double bladder 55 lb lift wing from the same company. I also own a dry suit. If my plan has me diving steel doubles in a wet suit of any thickness I will use the double bladder wing with the low pressure inflator hose connected. I would consider it reckless to dive steel doubles with only one single bladder wing and no dry suit. If I am diving in the dry suit I am free to choose between the single air cell wing (my usual choice) or the double air cell wing. If I am in the dry suit and choose to use the double bladder wing I do not connect the low pressure inflator hose to the backup air cell, and I place the inflator hose down my side not over my shoulder.
Many people will tell you that you should never dive wet with steel cylinders because a dry suit is the only acceptable form of redundant lift, they are free to have their opinion, and I am free to disagree with them. Redundant lift is a really good idea, but I think that a redundant air cell is a perfectly acceptable form of redundant lift.
My double bladder wing is no larger than my single bladder wing because it is designed in a way that both bladders sit side by side in the same canvas shell, the total lift capacity is 55 lbs regardless of which air cell is inflated, or the combination of both partially filled air cells.
If you use a double bladder wing or two separate single cell wings you do need to check the backup air cell during the dive to make sure that it is not slowly filling with air from a leaking inflator, but this is not an unmanagable task. If the idea of a runaway inflator really has you freaked out, then simply do not connect the low pressure inflator hose on that air cell, you can always orally inflate if you should need it.
Pick the gear that is appropriate for the dive. In my opinion a dry suit in really warm water is not usually my choice, I would rather dive wet and use my double bladder wing.
Mark Vlahos
I own a single bladder 55 lb lift wing and a double bladder 55 lb lift wing from the same company. I also own a dry suit. If my plan has me diving steel doubles in a wet suit of any thickness I will use the double bladder wing with the low pressure inflator hose connected. I would consider it reckless to dive steel doubles with only one single bladder wing and no dry suit. If I am diving in the dry suit I am free to choose between the single air cell wing (my usual choice) or the double air cell wing. If I am in the dry suit and choose to use the double bladder wing I do not connect the low pressure inflator hose to the backup air cell, and I place the inflator hose down my side not over my shoulder.
Many people will tell you that you should never dive wet with steel cylinders because a dry suit is the only acceptable form of redundant lift, they are free to have their opinion, and I am free to disagree with them. Redundant lift is a really good idea, but I think that a redundant air cell is a perfectly acceptable form of redundant lift.
My double bladder wing is no larger than my single bladder wing because it is designed in a way that both bladders sit side by side in the same canvas shell, the total lift capacity is 55 lbs regardless of which air cell is inflated, or the combination of both partially filled air cells.
If you use a double bladder wing or two separate single cell wings you do need to check the backup air cell during the dive to make sure that it is not slowly filling with air from a leaking inflator, but this is not an unmanagable task. If the idea of a runaway inflator really has you freaked out, then simply do not connect the low pressure inflator hose on that air cell, you can always orally inflate if you should need it.
Pick the gear that is appropriate for the dive. In my opinion a dry suit in really warm water is not usually my choice, I would rather dive wet and use my double bladder wing.
Mark Vlahos
PerroneFord
Contributor
rawls:
I have three wings for doubles. One has a longer inflator hose than the other two. Essentially, I place the backup wing onto the tanks first, then the active one (longer hose). Then the backplate goes on top.
I do NOT connect the backup to an inflator hose during the dive. However, I would not dive this configuration in open water with an unreachable bottom. If my primary buoyancy is lost, I will do my best to orally inflate the backup wing before I plummet. If I cannot get it full in time, I will slowly drop to the bottom, switch to the backup wing, and abort the dive. In a cave environment, there would not be enough time to orally inflate before hitting the bottom if there was a catastrophic loss of buoyancy. While we all strive to protect the cave, I would try to do as little damage as possible, switch to the backup, and exit the cave.
This is all hypothetical of course. I have not had to do this, and my drysuit will be here very soon making this moot for me. My primary hope is that others will not necessarily do what I did, but rather sit down and think hard about the scenario in which they will be diving, formulate a logical plan based on possible failures, and proceed as best they can. Sometimes that means NOT making the dive if you can't formulate a safe plan.
Similar threads
- Question
