Drinking & Diving

[Tortuga68]

We know that drinking alcohol compromises hydration for what is thought to be as long as 24 hours...

As I said earlier, if this was true to any significant degree, then the incidence of DCS in vacation divers would be much much higher than it is

I agree that hydration is important, and alcohol inhibits hydration, but the statisical evidence of DCS occurence doesn't support a conclusion that consumption of alcohol within 24 hours of diving significantly increases risk IMO

 

[Diver0001]

As I said earlier, if this was true to any significant degree, then the incidence of DCS in vacation divers would be much much higher than it is

I agree that hydration is important, and alcohol inhibits hydration, but the statisical evidence of DCS occurence doesn't support a conclusion that consumption of alcohol within 24 hours of diving significantly increases risk IMO

Bullseye.

The Bullsht is to assume that drinking a couple of drinks will dry you out so much that you'll get bent on your next dive.

It may be the straw that breaks the camel's back if you are already pushing things to the limits but the same people who are saying it's a BIG problem are the last ones who would tell you to push things to the limits..... to me it just seems like a bunch of (macho) internet posturing.

R..

 

[Thalassamania]

As I said earlier, if this was true to any significant degree, then the incidence of DCS in vacation divers would be much much higher than it is

I agree that hydration is important, and alcohol inhibits hydration, but the statisical evidence of DCS occurence doesn't support a conclusion that consumption of alcohol within 24 hours of diving significantly increases risk IMO

Bullseye.

The Bullsht is to assume that drinking a couple of drinks will dry you out so much that you'll get bent on your next dive.

It may be the straw that breaks the camel's back if you are already pushing things to the limits but the same people who are saying it's a BIG problem are the last ones who would tell you to push things to the limits..... to me it just seems like a bunch of (macho) internet posturing.

R..

That's much the point that I was trying to make. My concern is not with the no-D tourist dive that is planned (and hopefully made). My concern is the potential of having (for whatever reason) to make a more rigorous dive in a position of some level of dehydration.

 

[boulderjohn]

Here is a 2005 study on the relation of alcohol consumption and DCS.

 

[Thalassamania]

Thanks, that clarifies that it is not much of a factor in normal planned dives that result in either DCS or AGE. The telling point is (I think): "Although known risk factors for AGE (rapid ascent, running out of air) and for DCS (deep diving, exceeding tabled limits for depth and time) discriminated between DCS and AGE injury, alcohol consumption did not."

But the findings leave me cold with respect to the issue that was raised initially, that is the effects of dehydration on more rigorous than planned exposures since I suspect that those planning for decompression dives to begin with are (I guess, I hope) less likely to drink the night before the dive as they are in "expedition mode" rather than "vacation mode."

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Here is a 2005 study on the relation of alcohol consumption and DCS.

boulderjohn, thanks for sharing that 2005 study with us. If nothing else, it's a conversation-starter.

I am always very skeptical of the responses of people when it comes to "self-reporting" alcohol or drug usage. In my experience, there is almost always an under-reporting bias. I wonder whether this under-reporting bias might be magnified (or possibly skewed between the two groups: DCS vs. AGE injury) if the incident in question involved some sort of scuba injury.

I also don't agree with the logic being described in the poster:

Although known risk factors for AGE (rapid ascent, running out of air) and for DCS (deep diving, exceeding tabled limits for depth and time) discriminated between DCS and AGE injury, alcohol consumption did not. These findings do not support the contention that alcohol increases the risk of DCS.

Think about that for a second. Read it again. The authors appear to be using their knowledge of AGE and DCS risk factors to determine whether another factor (prior alcohol consumption) increases DCS risk. That's flat out ridiculous. One possibility is that factor X (alcohol consumption in this example) increases the risk of both conditions (DCS, AGE) equally. I really don't like how the authors applied this regression comparison technique.

The simple interpretation of their regression analysis is that alcohol consumption appears to be associated to a comparable extent with both DCS and AGE. To go beyond that is mere speculation.

 

[KWBuddy]

The Bullsht is to assume that drinking a couple of drinks will dry you out so much that you'll get bent on your next dive.

It may be the straw that breaks the camel's back if you are already pushing things to the limits but the same people who are saying it's a BIG problem are the last ones who would tell you to push things to the limits.....

I would use stronger language than that.

Given the number of recreational divers who drink and the zeal of those who preach abstinence, if there were the slightest wisp of evidence that a correlation between moderate alcohol use and DCS existed there would dozens of studies that these guys could cite. Since there are no such studies, it is pretty safe to assume that any link between the two us tenuous at best.

That won't stop the pedants from preaching their dogma and intimating that you could die if you don't toe their line.

I think their time would be better spent by publicizing known risks, but it's not my call to make.

--

Bud

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Given the number of recreational divers who drink and the zeal of those who preach abstinence, if there were the slightest wisp of evidence that a correlation between moderate alcohol use and DCS existed there would dozens of studies that these guys could cite. Since there are no such studies, it is pretty safe to assume that any link between the two us tenuous at best.

If it's true that no such studies exist, why is that? (I really don't know the answer to this question.)

Is it because no one has received funding to do such a study?
Is it because no one wants to dedicate time/effort to conduct such a study?
Is it because someone has already conducted the study, but the results are inconclusive?
Is it because conducting such a study might present ethical/informed consent issues and place study subjects in possible danger?
Is it because internal review boards make it difficult for scientists to obtain approval to conduct human alcohol-/drug-related studies?

It's difficult to interpret what is meant by the absence of published data.
It's much easier to evaluate the merits/limitations/deficiencies of published studies.
Drawing conclusions based on what isn't in the scientific literature is problematic at best.

Personally, it makes very little sense to me to accept the unknown risk of drinking before diving. I do enjoy beer and wine. However, it's so easy to avoid drinking before diving that it makes little sense to risk doing it. Does alcohol bring so much enjoyment into my life that I can't abstain from drinking it for a relatively short period of time? I enjoy diving much more than drinking alcoholic beverages. I would feel uncomfortable if my dive buddy didn't feel the same way I did about this.

That being said, people are free to choose whether they want to drink or not while on a dive vacation. Liveaboard dive ops are free to make their own rules on the matter. Their boat, their rules. Customers can choose to patronize those dive ops based on those rules.

 

[CuracaoJ]

I am always very skeptical of the responses of people when it comes to "self-reporting" alcohol or drug usage. In my experience, there is almost always an under-reporting bias.

Bubbletrubble, I think you are right on. I have been enjoying this thread, and have avoided posting on it, while being amused the whole time. I find it interesting to read this thread where numerous people are preaching abstinence and talking about how they wouldn't dive with a buddy that had a beer with his burger at lunch, and then I hop over to the Coz postings where everyone is talking about how tanked they are going to be on account of all the free booze.

If people were allowed to post here anonymously I think you'd find that many people dive after having a cold one on the beach. I also think that if alcohol was anything more than a mitigating factor you would have a lot more studies and cases coming out of DAN et al in regards to alcohol.

I also find it interesting reading all the threads about how dehydration is such a buzz word, and is so overrated, yet when it comes to drinking alcohol it's like you are sucked bone dry if you even look at a margarita.

I'm not saying its a good idea, or I condone drinking and diving. I agree with the premise that we need to do anything and everything we can to reduce mitigating factors, even on clear warm water rec dives. Heck, I dive with my son every chance I get and there is nothing I would do to ever risk my ability to rescue him if I needed to. However, I agree with you that this thread probably represents massive "under-reporting" as you so aptly put it.

Safe diving,
Jeff

 

[KWBuddy]

If it's true that no such studies exist, why is that? (I really don't know the answer to this question.)

Is it because no one has received funding to do such a study?
Is it because no one wants to dedicate time/effort to conduct such a study?
Is it because someone has already conducted the study, but the results are inconclusive?
Is it because conducting such a study might present ethical/informed consent issues and place study subjects in possible danger?
Is it because internal review boards make it difficult for scientists to obtain approval to conduct human alcohol-/drug-related studies?

Is the raw data not available from the DAN Database?

There is most certainly no lack of people who want to prove a connection. I can only *ass*u*me that someone in that group could run a study based on the data.

It's difficult to interpret what is meant by the absence of published data.
It's much easier to evaluate the merits/limitations/deficiencies of published studies.

You are certainly correct that the absence of a proven correlation is not proof that no correlation exists.

Have you heard the story of the African hunter who stops talking every few minutes to do a ditty and chant routine. His companion asks him why he is so persistent with his ritual. "I keeps the wild lions away."

"But there are no wild lions here in Kansas."

"See how well it works?" the hunter replied.

If you want to believe a link exists, go ahead. I for one have no problem with people who don't want to drink for whatever reason. Heck, I have a lot of friends who never touch the stuff.

On the other hand, I do have an issue with people who use scare tactics instead of logic to make their point. If you have evidence that there is a risk, show me. But please don't try frighten me by describing all terrible things that might happen to me if I fail follow your rules.

--

Bud