Dual bladder wing?
- Thread starter SailNaked
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Thanks for the heads-up
OP
Thanks all for making this interesting, I love the discussions here, they are nothing if not passionate. I like to think out loud on Scubaboard, it helps me discover things I had not thought about.
To be clear I was thinking about worst case scenarios and ways to mitigate them before splashing. If I need a double bladder I will buy one. if I have to have a dry suit I will buy one, if I do not need it and there are reasonable arguments for simplifying a dive I am all for that.
there is nothing I can do about the specs of a steel 100(10,2#) besides adding some static buoyancy, we do not dive with redundant buoyancy with singles I assume because we can swim up the worst case scenario or we have ditch-able weight. I could easily make double 100s weigh the same as a single 80, except for the air, which would be 16#. (at a cost of water resistance).
no Stage
* At splash(2x100S) I weigh ~(20+4)-12(7MM) +4#(WB)= 16#
* At Depth(<150) I weigh ~ 28-6(excessive 50% compression) = <22#
* At Stop (20ft) I weigh (4(WB)+4(ET)+2(air)+4(regs))-12 = 2#
with stage we add (4,0)# but it is ditch-able. so next time I am in the water I will see if i can swim up 26#
In this scenario if I tore open my wing entering a wreck at 150, I would have a small problem, I would have to deploy some form of backup buoyancy for all other situations I am fine.
the point is, it can be thought about ahead of time and the variables and what ifs discussed here on scubaboard with no risk to life and only moderate risk to self esteem. If the bottom were more than 130 I would have to take the possibility that I would have a wing failure at the instant I jumped in, into account and ask myself what would Buddha do in that situation. I might have a stage bottle and an option might be to ditch my whole kit and breath the stage back to the surface. maybe I just make sure that the maximum weight of my kit is no more than I can swim up. or maybe I just carry two wings. If I have a plan and all failures are accounted for then I may still die but I have done what I can.
I have no immediate plans other than to take Tdi Adv Nx/Deco, and will rent anything I do not own and is required for that.
To be clear I was thinking about worst case scenarios and ways to mitigate them before splashing. If I need a double bladder I will buy one. if I have to have a dry suit I will buy one, if I do not need it and there are reasonable arguments for simplifying a dive I am all for that.
there is nothing I can do about the specs of a steel 100(10,2#) besides adding some static buoyancy, we do not dive with redundant buoyancy with singles I assume because we can swim up the worst case scenario or we have ditch-able weight. I could easily make double 100s weigh the same as a single 80, except for the air, which would be 16#. (at a cost of water resistance).
no Stage
* At splash(2x100S) I weigh ~(20+4)-12(7MM) +4#(WB)= 16#
* At Depth(<150) I weigh ~ 28-6(excessive 50% compression) = <22#
* At Stop (20ft) I weigh (4(WB)+4(ET)+2(air)+4(regs))-12 = 2#
with stage we add (4,0)# but it is ditch-able. so next time I am in the water I will see if i can swim up 26#
In this scenario if I tore open my wing entering a wreck at 150, I would have a small problem, I would have to deploy some form of backup buoyancy for all other situations I am fine.
the point is, it can be thought about ahead of time and the variables and what ifs discussed here on scubaboard with no risk to life and only moderate risk to self esteem. If the bottom were more than 130 I would have to take the possibility that I would have a wing failure at the instant I jumped in, into account and ask myself what would Buddha do in that situation. I might have a stage bottle and an option might be to ditch my whole kit and breath the stage back to the surface. maybe I just make sure that the maximum weight of my kit is no more than I can swim up. or maybe I just carry two wings. If I have a plan and all failures are accounted for then I may still die but I have done what I can.
I have no immediate plans other than to take Tdi Adv Nx/Deco, and will rent anything I do not own and is required for that.
Depending on your ability to swim up without air in your BC, for me, sounds like a bad idea. To practice it on the other hand sounds like a good idea.
I try always to think of the what ifs. That's why I primarily use a double bladder.
It depends on the equipment, weight, type of dive, etc, but buying a double bladder wing is easy.
Helping a negativly buoyant buddy up, without air in your wing is not easy.
Freeing your doubles from something and donning them back on, with a broken deflated wing, is not easy, that I know from experience.
If one inflator freeflows or jams, I find the back up inflator to be the easiest redundancy.
Offcourse there is alternatives, but in my eyes a double bladder is the easiest way to go for redundancy.
I try always to think of the what ifs. That's why I primarily use a double bladder.
It depends on the equipment, weight, type of dive, etc, but buying a double bladder wing is easy.
Helping a negativly buoyant buddy up, without air in your wing is not easy.
Freeing your doubles from something and donning them back on, with a broken deflated wing, is not easy, that I know from experience.
If one inflator freeflows or jams, I find the back up inflator to be the easiest redundancy.
Offcourse there is alternatives, but in my eyes a double bladder is the easiest way to go for redundancy.
hg frogman
Contributor
1) Double bladder wings are less troublesome than using a drysuit when you don't really need such a suit. A drysuit is (at least potentially) a PITA, all the more so when you don't need it.
2) And even when you really need a drysuit, relying on it for backup buoyancy is hazardous in many cases. More so than using a double bladder wing.
3) To the OP: your initial assumption (if I have well understood) that wing failure will most likely happen when your tanks are nearly empty is wrong. This failure may happen at the surface, before your descent, or at the beginining of your time on the bottom (eg just after you penetrate the wreck). Your tanks are still nearly full. Also don't forget that struggling for ascending to the surface (and for staying afloat !) is not any good for decompression.
Bottomline: don't take your desires for realities.
Check with the instructors that may actually do the course for you. That should guide your choice for the appropriate wing without waste of time and money.
2) And even when you really need a drysuit, relying on it for backup buoyancy is hazardous in many cases. More so than using a double bladder wing.
3) To the OP: your initial assumption (if I have well understood) that wing failure will most likely happen when your tanks are nearly empty is wrong. This failure may happen at the surface, before your descent, or at the beginining of your time on the bottom (eg just after you penetrate the wreck). Your tanks are still nearly full. Also don't forget that struggling for ascending to the surface (and for staying afloat !) is not any good for decompression.
Bottomline: don't take your desires for realities.
Check with the instructors that may actually do the course for you. That should guide your choice for the appropriate wing without waste of time and money.
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OK,dual bladder for me.Much easier to manage than a drysuit as a buoyancy device.And i don't even want to talk about relying on a lifting bag to save your ass out a hairy situation(by the time you grab it,unfold it and deploy it,in real life you have plummeted another 50m.)
)
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OP
No I make no assumption about when a failure may happen, I am just trying to work through the different scenarios about what the different consequences would be for different times of failure. The worst possible time would be right off the back of the boat in terms of weight, if I could manage that event then I would have less total weight at all times for the rest of the dive. near the end of a dive I would plan to be about neutral without the need of a wing at all unless that were not possible then I would have to account for what I would weigh in the water at that point.
seems to me if you carefully consider your total weight and your ability to swim up the worst possible case of a failure that it would be safe enough to swim without a redundant bladder in some situations.
now if I also got a leg cramp at the same time as I had a bladder failure, then you all would show this post to the insurance company and they would deny my familys claim as I would have been a schmuck.
I own three single bladders and have dived with two of them at the same time with double AL80s It was ok but the routing was confusing and I would have to get used to it in a pool before I would take it to any depth.
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