EAN32 fill require O2 clean tank or not

[Rhone Man]

That is what I was trying to point out. Hence asking those who claim there is a law to be specific and give us which one and what it says. Interestingly they either don't answer or are vague in their answers. If there was such a law it shouldn't be that hard to point it out.

Agree. Lot of false mystique goes on.

I worked for a year VIP'ing tanks at a dive store, but I have never received any formal training beyond guidance from other store employees. The most complex part was how to punch the dates on the stickers without ending up with some kind of tear. I still VIP my own tanks except for my doubles which are a pain in the @ss to VIP.

Bizarrely, I am actually certified to O2 clean tanks, although I have never actually done one since the training course.

Although probably not for the reasons he implied though, rigdiver might be right - putting a label on an item which falsely indicates some form of testing or inspection can constitute the criminal offence of forgery in many jurisdictions. But if you are satisfied in your own mind that your tank is O2 clean and you are not planning to fill it with 40+%, I personally wouldn't have too many reservations about circumventing the gougers.

 

[iztok]

Although probably not for the reasons he implied though, rigdiver might be right - putting a label on an item which falsely indicates some form of testing or inspection can constitute the criminal offence of forgery in many jurisdictions. But if you are satisfied in your own mind that your tank is O2 clean and you are not planning to fill it with 40+%, I personally wouldn't have too many reservations about circumventing the gougers.[/COLOR]

If you actually performed the VIP and cleaning then put your own sticker on it would not constitute a forgery.

 

[tomfcrist]

Wow, alot of differant opinions oin here, and everyone seems to have a valid point. Just a thought though, how annoying is it to find a shop that wont PP fill a tank that doesnt have their shops O2 VIP sticker on it? Read below to find out why that is.

Happily you can buy Nitrox VIP stickers online.

Anyone can get stickers, while very few of us have the training to O2 clean tanks. I'm not putting O2 in a tank that may have been inspected by Homer Simpson or Eric Cartman. If you dont like it, drive 30 miles down the road to the next fill station.

 

[halocline]

If your tank is Enriched Air certified with the proper stickers, decal, certification of service is up to date. Nothing else needs to be done. If you filled it previously and not have used the Enriched air for over a month than an empty and refresh needs to be done to clear the unused air. And fill it with new air. Apart from that nothing else.

So long as your tank' markings are up to date too.

Gee thanks for helping to perpetuate the BS that so many dive shops just toss out there regarding mixed gases. Where did you pick up these gems?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Agree. Lot of false mystique goes on.

I worked for a year VIP'ing tanks at a dive store, but I have never received any formal training beyond guidance from other store employees. The most complex part was how to punch the dates on the stickers without ending up with some kind of tear. I still VIP my own tanks except for my doubles which are a pain in the @ss to VIP.

Bizarrely, I am actually certified to O2 clean tanks, although I have never actually done one since the training course.

Although probably not for the reasons he implied though, rigdiver might be right - putting a label on an item which falsely indicates some form of testing or inspection can constitute the criminal offence of forgery in many jurisdictions. But if you are satisfied in your own mind that your tank is O2 clean and you are not planning to fill it with 40+%, I personally wouldn't have too many reservations about circumventing the gougers.

Anybody can legally inspect and attach VIP stickers to their own cylinders. The question is why would you unless you know what you're doing? Playing around with oxygen hazards is bad ju-ju unless you are adequately educated to know how to prevent them.

I don't see the forgery bit applying unless you are doing VIPs commercially ... and frankly there are more dive shops out there doing that who I wouldn't trust than those who I would to do the job properly. With a couple hours of training, a light and a mirror, there's no reason why any reasonably competent person can't do their own inspections. If you really want to DIY, build yourself a tank tumbler, purchase a few cups of media, some Simple Green, and a collection of replacement o-rings for your valves and do the job right. There is no law preventing it ... the most you'll have to worry about is whether or not the fill station will accept your VIP stickers as valid ... most will, some won't.

Suggesting that it's illegal to perform your own VIPs is silly ... it's like saying it's illegal to change your own car engine oil ... and just about as difficult to do.

When did we get to the point in scuba diving where we always seem to start from the assumption that the diver is incompetent?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[tomfcrist]

Suggesting that it's illegal to perform your own VIPs is silly ... it's like saying it's illegal to change your own car engine oil ... and just about as difficult to do.

When did we get to the point in scuba diving where we always seem to start from the assumption that the diver is incompetent?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The VIP is easy as pie, unless you need to do an eddy current inspection, or O2 clean the tank. O2 cleaning is NOT like changing your oil, however anyone that can read a book can figure it out. The problem is that cleaning the interior of the tank is only half the battle, the valve needs to be O2 clean as well. You would be amazed how many tanks i have seen come through for fills that have O2 clean stickers and have standard o rings in the valves.

The point that we started assuming that the diver is incompetent is when the majority of divers proved to be incompetent.

 

[ReconShark]

It will be interesting to see when I take (2) Al 80 Tanks needing VIP, that already have a NITROX sticker on them (supposedly O2 cleaned) , to see if the shop tries to charge me additional for an O2 cleaning because of the sticker. Stay Tuned

 

[tomfcrist]

It will be interesting to see when I take (2) Al 80 Tanks needing VIP, that already have a NITROX sticker on them (supposedly O2 cleaned) , to see if the shop tries to charge me additional for an O2 cleaning because of the sticker. Stay Tuned

I guess that really depends on if the shop actually O2 cleans the tank. Realisticly, if they didnt O2 clean it and put the current sticker on it, they should O2 clean the tank just so they KNOW that it is clean before they certify it to be! Just a thought.

 

[DevonDiver]

Anyone can get stickers, while very few of us have the training to O2 clean tanks. I'm not putting O2 in a tank that may have been inspected by Homer Simpson or Eric Cartman. If you dont like it, drive 30 miles down the road to the next fill station.

Yep, I gotta agree with this.

Some of the views expressed on this thread regarding the (fraudulent?) use of VIP stickers bought online to misrepresent that a tank has had some type of recognized, formal inspection are what is highly likely to drive LDS to establish strict policies on only filling cylinders that have had a in-house test.

There are dangers in filling cylinders. LDS have a responsibility to protect their staff from those dangers. If the validity of a test sticker is in doubt, then it is only fair for an LDS to impose a policy of not accepting VIP or O2 clean stickers from external sources.

If you actually performed the VIP and cleaning then put your own sticker on it would not constitute a forgery.

Yep... if the stickers are available for any muppet to buy online, then those stickers cease to have any value as industrial recognition.

If a customer misrepresented the status of their cylinder, then I am guessing there would be HUGE legal repercussions in the event of a filling accident.

The first question that investigating authorities are gonna ask is: "Right.. we can see the sticker, so please provide some evidence of where and when the VIP / O2 Clean was carried out..."

Replying "I bought the stickers online and did the inspection in my garage after reading a website about it..." is not going to cut the mustard...

 

[Rhone Man]

All agreed, although we have come a long way from the original hypothesis of: I have a new O2 clean tank, but my LDS wants to gouge me for $40 before they will fill it with EAN32 through membrane or partial pressure blending. To me, buying a nitrox clean sticker and slapping it in that scenario is an acceptable response.

Let's not over extrapolate that and imply that generally slapping VIP stickers on instead of having tanks checked, or asking someone to put EAN40+ into a tank which has not been O2 cleaned, is sensible behaviour.