enough "self-rescue" in AOW?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Correct. No. The two notable PADI OW skills that are pool only are the maskless swim, and the UW remove and replace BCD and weight system. If an instructor added these to OW skills on their own and something went wrong, they would be held 100% responsible.
We do remove and replace the mask UW, and remove and replace BCD & weight at the surface.

I never understood however, for cold water divers, it makes no sense to not teach them uw scuba kit removal and replacement in the open water, as that is where they'd use it. For the tropics with little or no exposure protection, I get it. But cold water no. But I digress.

 

[JackD342]

I never understood however, for cold water divers, it makes no sense to not teach them uw scuba kit removal and replacement in the open water, as that is where they'd use it. For the tropics with little or no exposure protection, I get it. But cold water no. But I digress.

First, I think it is not practiced in OW because it can too easily go sideways. That call on relative risk I'm sure has been well debated in the past by the folks that write the standards.

But to your point... only cold water divers can become entangled and have a buddy too far away to notice and assist? That can't happen in warm water???

And again, we are talking underwater, not at the surface, which IS practiced in the OW class. (And again in the drysuit class)

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

First, I think it is not practiced in OW because it can too easily go sideways. That call on relative risk I'm sure has been well debated in the past by the folks that write the standards.

But to your point... only cold water divers can become entangled and have a buddy too far away to notice and assist? That can't happen in warm water???

And again, we are talking underwater, not at the surface, which IS practiced in the OW class. (And again in the drysuit class)

Oh, I agree it can go sideways, just as CESAs have with instructors not having a stop line and students holding their breaths. My point is that they should figure out how to do it in open water. This requires proper weight distribution (weight belts) for dry suit divers, smaller ratios, etc.. What if two buddies get entangled simultaneously? What then? (such as diving through kelp) That's the issue I have.

In terms of dry suit, in PADIs course, they handle being inverted/ascents in the pool, but not open water. In the SSI program, students perform that skill also in open water. That just makes sense to me. We are not going to change any agency on this, but that's just my thoughts. I understand risk assessment, but I feel that 8:1 ratios are a contributor of risk when it comes to difficult skills.

 

[M DeM]

Interesting that you mention your volunteer diving at the NY aquarium. Our local aquarium, in Long Beach, has a volunteer diver program but to qualify we have to be at least Rescue certified. This requirement seems to make sense, in light of your questions... because I agree, it would be reasonable for the aquarium divers to have some basic rescue diver training. Our DSO thinks so also.



PADI AOW requires five dives. Deep and Navigation are required; the remaining three are chosen from a list of about 20 options. If you only did three dives and were then given your AOW card... bad for you and them.

The AOW class is not designed to make you an "advanced" diver; it is designed to simply advance your experience with different kinds of diving. And to be brutally honest, the value of the AOW class really depends on how much effort the instructor wants to put into it. All too often an instructor will do the bare minimum, just to meet the minimum required standards, and the students will be satisfied because they get a new card. But if the instructor wants to put out some effort, their students can really feel like the AOW class was worthwhile.

With that said... if you want to learn Rescue, take the Rescue class. But find the right instructor. If you have an instructor that only wants to give you the bare minimum, you might feel like you're missing out.


This should have been covered in Open Water class. If you mean how to ascend at a proper rate without looking at ANY instrumentation or any reference (i.e. just open water)... if anyone tells you that is taught anywhere, they're having one on you.



The reason these things are not included in an AOW class, or even a Rescue class, is that very few people are interested and even fewer people have the need to learn these things. I've never ascended feet first, never had to breathe off a hose or a cylinder. These are not things that are generally useful... so why would PADI include them as standard requirements in an AOW class?

However, breathing from a freeflowing regulator should have been covered in your OW class.

You might also find that no instructor will do the latter two (breathing from a bare hose or tank) with you because they are not a standard part of a course and if something were to go wrong while you were doing this, the instructor would have a LOT of explaining to do.


Open water class. Predive equipment check should cover things like this, preferably so you find the problems before you get in the water, and cover how to fix simple problems.



Loss of viz and/or mask should have been covered in OW class... part of dive planning and the buddy system. In fact, a "no mask swim" should have been one of the skills you performed in confined water during your OW class. If you completely, suddenly lose all visibility... thumb the dive, make sure your buddy knows, and ascend. This is simple OW stuff.

Night dive is one of the options for AOW, but it is not required. Your instructor should have gone through the options and allowed you to choose a night dive, if conditions permitted. Of course you can always take a night dive course separately.



Deal with getting stuck should have been covered in OW class. You shouldn't be getting stuck in a wreck because you shouldn't enter a wreck without proper training. THAT should have also been covered in OW class.


Open water class?



As I've outlined above, the necessary things on your list should have been covered in OW class. The others are not generally necessary. If you find regular occasion that requires you to breathe off a cylinder or hose, something has gone horribly wrong with your dive. Which means your dive planning (something else covered in OW class) needs improvement.



The Rescue class is designed to teach self-rescue and rescue of others. That is the purpose of the class. The AOW class is not designed for this. Suggesting that the Rescue course is not worthwhile because AOW did not teach any rescue skills... doesn't really make sense. If you want to learn rescue skills, take the Rescue course.

How do you avoid panicking? Training and experience AND dive planning. Always make a plan with your buddy, follow the plan... just as you learned in OW class.

As for classes being more rigorous: there's a lot of debate about that. The upside to classes now is that we know a lot more about diving than we did a long time ago. So one could argue that we're a lot better at knowing what is essential for certain courses and what is non-essential (i.e. what topics and skills are better left for a later course.) Most people that offer an opinion of the difference between dive training now and then are just making noise. To make a truly objective comparison, they would have had to take a lot of training, from many different instructors, a long time ago; and then take a lot of training recently, also from a lot of different instructors. I don't know anyone that has done this.

This is amazing.... I can't believe so much of this was supposed to be done in OW. I definitely didn't have to do a no-mask dive. Definitely didn't cover currents at *all* ( a little bit in navigation, but that's it). I'd never penetrate a wreck, but I have been with someone who got stuck on a swim-through. Not "stuck" so much as she was caught on something. Definitely didn't breath off a free-flowing regulator.

Geez, I feel like I should take OW again.....

 

[M DeM]

Oh, I agree it can go sideways, just as CESAs have with instructors not having a stop line and students holding their breaths. My point is that they should figure out how to do it in open water. This requires proper weight distribution (weight belts) for dry suit divers, smaller ratios, etc.. What if two buddies get entangled simultaneously? What then? (such as diving through kelp) That's the issue I have.

In terms of dry suit, in PADIs course, they handle being inverted/ascents in the pool, but not open water. In the SSI program, students perform that skill also in open water. That just makes sense to me. We are not going to change any agency on this, but that's just my thoughts. I understand risk assessment, but I feel that 8:1 ratios are a contributor of risk when it comes to difficult skills.

Do you find that "overall" one agency is better than the other, PADI vs SSI? I know all comes down to the instructor, but syllabus wise and skill-mastery wise?

 

[M DeM]

The term AOW is being extremely miss used in this thread. The paid adventure diver is not the AOW rating. That is the ADVANCED open water. Those are two different ratings. The reason your not getting the full class and is because your doing the adventure course. Which is basically OW.
The AOW or advanced open water is a higher rating over adventure and ow. In that class as mentioned by the poster above is a much more intensive course in which you should be taught more things.

Unless you the OP are just miss using the words yourself. Paid adventure and paid advanced ARE NOT THE SAME

No, I did paid "advanced" but they call the additional dives that you do "adventure dives". This is what I did: Advanced Open Water Diver | PADI

But now that I read it, I see that there's really no place in the description that talks about learning more skills. It seems to be more about "gaining experience."

 

[Esprise Me]

Correct. No. The two notable PADI OW skills that are pool only are the maskless swim, and the UW remove and replace BCD and weight system. If an instructor added these to OW skills on their own and something went wrong, they would be held 100% responsible.
We do remove and replace the mask UW, and remove and replace BCD & weight at the surface.

Replying to you since you seem like you'd know, but throwing this out there for everyone: is there a way to get some practice on these skills in open water with an instructor, or to get additional practice on the skills we did once, on our knees, in our OW course?

My friend with whom I got certified doesn't plan to dive again until it warms up, i.e. at least 6 months after our course. So I was thinking if she takes a refresher course I might join her, even though I will have been diving several times in the interim. I'd love to have a chance to just practice the skills again. But from what I'm reading, it seems the refresher course is all done in the pool, so it might not be quite what I'm looking for.

 

[JackD342]

Refreshers can also be done in Open Water, but there are few skills that could only be practiced in the pool within PADI standards.
The one notable is that even though the OW student originally practiced a CESA in OW, we are NOT allowed to include it when doing a Refresher in OW, only in the pool.

 

[TMHeimer]

Yeah, agree that your OW course was lacking and pretty much with all the posts so far. But OW or AOW has basically nothing to do with Rescue. And, I know you are in agreement that taking Rescue at some point will put you in good shape. Meanwhile, maybe pay an instructor to fill in what you are not up to par on from OW course. If, of course, that is a viable option in your locale. An experienced diver is not as good a choice as a "helper", but maybe that's your only option.
Yes, a Refresher is even a better option, but with the same operation that you took OW???

 

[Esprise Me]

Definitely would not go back to the same place I took OW. I had no idea what to look for the first time around and deferred to my friend's price-conscious sensibilities. I think I can do better this time.