FBI Collecting your Information

[MikeS]

Rstone,

To my mind the key to the tradeoff between freedom and security is; “is what you gain worth what you give up?” In this case it most certainly is. I don’t see how we’re giving up much of anything for the potential gain of catching terrorists.

I don’t see how comparing a list of those SCUBA certified against a list of suspected terrorists is “stepping all over” me.

Where would I draw the line? Well, that’s a hard question to answer. First of all the line would tend to change with the situation. The situation today in Iowa is different than in Israel. While being search to enter a restaurant may be expectable in one location, it’s not in the other. It’s also hard to answer without a specific example. Lets say a new requirement came out that required all regulators to be registered and a permit required to posses one. To my mind that would be giving up something of consequence and I would be concerned.

So I say, let them collect all the information they want if it helps catch terrorists.

Mike

 

[MikeS]

Mike,

Will this mean that all of the liabilities wavers for training will be re-written to include a release for injuries sustained while performing underwater terrorist acts?

Mike

 

[rstone]

Originally posted by bengiddins
Can somebody please explain how a scuba diver is losing some of their freedom just because the FBI has their name on a list with 1,000,000 other peoples names, that has "List of Scuba Divers" written at the top of it?

Sure, the list is probably going to be cross-referenced with INS records and other information. Still, where is the loss of freedom?

Lets say the cross-referencing comes up with 1,000 matches - non-citizens like me who have done scuba training since moving to the United States. Any loss of freedom yet? Certainly not for any US citizens. Mine and 1,000 other visa applications and INS records are probably going to get pulled and looked at though.

Let's say that 3 out of the 1,000 matches also has an Afghanistan or any of a number of other "axis of evil" type countries' stamps in the passport. Okay, interview time.

Lets say that 1 out the 3 is also on a list of names that some special ops troops found in a cave in Afghanistan before they blew it up. Uh-oh, I can see the loss of freedom coming - and it ain't mine.

Or is the loss of freedom for the diver, the lost opportunity to shore dive the brand new wreck of a cruise ship in Miami after it was sunk by a terrorist act?

Sounds like hysteria to me.

The right to privacy is a freedom when their is a expectation by a reasonably prudent person to that privacy. The right to privacy in our own homes is also a freedom. Thats why we require a search warrant to invade someones privacy, because there is a reasonable expectation to privacy in ones home. That's also why a third party "The Judge" is their to interpet the law and facts so he/she can decide if the police, FBI or whoever has enough probably cause to effect that search warrant and thats a crash course in criminal law for you.

Ryan

 

[rstone]

Originally posted by MikeS
Rstone,

To my mind the key to the tradeoff between freedom and security is; “is what you gain worth what you give up?” In this case it most certainly is. I don’t see how we’re giving up much of anything for the potential gain of catching terrorists.

I don’t see how comparing a list of those SCUBA certified against a list of suspected terrorists is “stepping all over” me.

Where would I draw the line? Well, that’s a hard question to answer. First of all the line would tend to change with the situation. The situation today in Iowa is different than in Israel. While being search to enter a restaurant may be expectable in one location, it’s not in the other. It’s also hard to answer without a specific example. Lets say a new requirement came out that required all regulators to be registered and a permit required to posses one. To my mind that would be giving up something of consequence and I would be concerned.

So I say, let them collect all the information they want if it helps catch terrorists.

Mike

Well lets play the devils-advocate then.. What if they want to Tap your phone and internet connection? What if they wanted to put up cameras on every street corner? What if they wanted to implant a microchip in your hand as a national identity card and by the way, I didnt pull that one out of a hat either as its been talked about before.

Ryan

 

[MikeFerrara]

MikeS,
I'm thinking we have to look at it.

 

[cougar]

Originally posted by ScubyDoo



I hope your opinion is not the majority Arduous. I agree that as a nation we must take extraordinary actions against the evils which face us, but eroding our freedom is not one of them. Hundreds of thousands of men have died to protect these freedoms which so many are now so willing to sacrifice. Im a lawful citizen....I never break the law, but I still dont want the FBI or any other government agency snooping around in my personal business without just cause. There are other ways to fight terrorism besides destroying the framework...the binding fabric......of this great country.

Also, in a free country we dont ask people to leave just because they dont like the way its being run. Instead we ask them to practice one of the fundamental tenents of what makes America great, which is to voice thier opposition for all to hear, and to exercise thier right to vote for new leadership.

Who was it that said "Give me Liberty, or Give Me Death"?

SOme of you don't seem to get the idea that if we lose personal freedoms and due process....we have torn and tattered our constitution. Due process is a basic tenet of American freedoms. If we allow Ashcroft and Bush to destroy these in the name of "hunting terrorists" You don't really believe we will get them back? In the US the government, FBI etc is not allowed to behave like thh Taliban or the Gestapo!!! If we don't make certain they rememnber this ...you won't have to move..you'll wake up one morning under the control of that kind of government.
If I hear one more person spout , "America, love it or leave it.".. I'm gonna scream. The entire reason some of us choose to live her is the we CAN protest...we CAN disagree, we CAN take our govenment to task. All of us are part of it...we are not supposed to be a nation of sheep that allow the government to run rough shod over people. Due process must be observed! ScubyDoo...your said it!!

 

[pt40fathoms]

As a Canadian, registered with PADI, I would be outraged if PADI released any personal information of mine to a domestic government agency. But to a foreign government agency, I would consider it to be criminal, and will pursue the matter in the courts here in Canada!

Pardon me for paraphrasing Ben Franklin (or was it Jefferson?) , but he once said something to the effect of:

Any people who are willing to give up freedom in the pursuit of security, deserve neither.

 

[art.chick]

"Law-abiding" should not allay fears. Once data is banked & stored, it can be used for something sometime. Suppose, for instance that you were being auditted by the IRS, having written off some gear as legitimate business expense, were collecting unemployment benefits between jobs, were in litigation, on probation, seeking custody, and somehow, knowing that you were a diver & where you could be watched gave some adversary of yours ammunition to use against you. Why should we just trust that info on our personal lives will benignly be lost or forgotten the day the last "terrorist" is shot?

Oh, yes, the instructors themselves told me they got these letters form their certification organizations & have been asked to turn people in to the FBI. I consider them credible.

 

[Walter]

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

I can't speak for how other agencies have responded, but I did receive the following from the Y:

Notice to YMCA Scuba Instructors: Responding to Requests From Law Enforcement Agencies



Several Scuba instructors have been contacted by the FBI or local law enforcement agencies and requested to provide their files relating to YMCA Scuba participants. These files may contain information that is confidential and subject to privacy protection laws. While YMCA Scuba wants to fully cooperate with law enforcement agencies, privacy rights must also be honored.



If you are contacted by a law enforcement agency with a request to provide information about a specific participant, the following procedures are recommended:



Indicate that you are willing to cooperate but must be sure you are acting within the law with regard to the rights of the persons whose information has been requested
Ask to see a copy of the law or subpoena which gives them the right to examine the records or to ask you to discuss specific individuals
Ask to be allowed to contact an attorney for guidance
Contact your attorney and follow his/her advice


If you have further questions or want more information, please contact the YMCA of the USA Office of the General Counsel at 312-419-8414.





Tec Clark

Associate Director

YMCA of the USA Scuba Program


For what it's worth, the FBI did visit my home last week. The agent asked questions about who, in general, I've taught. They did not ask me to turn over any records.

 

[rstone]

Originally posted by art.chick
Oh, yes, the instructors themselves told me they got these letters form their certification organizations & have been asked to turn people in to the FBI. I consider them credible.

Well Art.chick, I'm a PADI IDC Staff Instructor and never received any letters from PADI before or after releasing this information, if I hadn't been wondering around the net, I doubt I would of ever known because no one ever told me from PADI.

Ryan Stone
IDCS