Fellow Diver OOA Incident

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BigboyDan:
I agree with Capt. Morgan and ABQ. The DM responsiblity is to the divers, MY employer knows this.

Someone quoted saying they've seen about 15% of DM's act like this one. I didn't read it closely enough and thought that he/she meant only about 15% don't act like this and that 15% are really good.

I meant to say that you BigBoyDan are not one that would act like the DM mentioned. Sorry, for the mix up in %.

Another thread could be started on DMs and there roles. I personally have never relied on them and treated them like my instructor; but, I've seen a lot of people that do. Maybe a good new thread should be the DM role to below DM cert divers since DMs know what they're role is but few below that cert do. I am not sure that OW and AOW teach what the DM role is and how much they should be dependent upon themselves and be a good dive buddy.
 
Snowbear:
You mean something like this one :D

Yes, you are right this a perfect place for the suggestion. But, originally this thread was about an OOA diver with questions about the DMs role.

I wanted to keep the discussion on the OOA situation but the is a need for people to understand the role of a DM during dives in other parts of the world. If this is the thread so be it!

Some really good DMs have chimed in so far and I value their responses! I just thought it would be informative to those below DM status to realize how much they are responsible for and act accordingly.

After I was first certified, I too looked at the DM as more than a tour guide (treating him/her more like my insturctor) and quickly realized I had to put into practice the things I learned in classes and not use the DM as a crutch.
 
Capt. Morgan:
After I was first certified, I too looked at the DM as more than a tour guide (treating him/her more like my insturctor) and quickly realized I had to put into practice the things I learned in classes and not use the DM as a crutch.
Rather than being a "crutch", the DM in this case doesn't appear to have even lived up to basic buddy responsibility of being aware of his fellow divers.

humanfish:
Small group, the DM, myself, and another couple.

2) Should I have reacted differently when he showed me his guage?

3) Should the DM have lectured him and his buddy? Should she have lectured me? Should we have lectured her?
your #2) As others have noted, immediately beginning of ascent by you, the LOA (LOW on air, as opposed to OUT of air at this point) diver, and his buddy would have been best, along with checking of his buddy's air pressure.
Your response was reasonable, but it's always easy to come up with a better response while leisurely reviewing things later.

While rocketing to the surface is a bad idea, on any NDL dive a reasonable response to a wide variety of problems is
share air if needed.
physical contact if needed
signal abort/ascent
gather together buddies
controlled ascent to 30',
establish buoyancy control by stopping completely
then move up to 15' stop and review the situation at leisure.
Now you have lots of options like heading on up to the surface; of hanging for a while, then surfacing; of transiting back to the boat or shore at 15'.

I have drilled this response set into my head so hopefully it would be reasonably automatic in the case of LOA, OOA, or panicked divers.

your #3) The old saying about "praise in public, criticise in private" applies. I'd have told the DM that his buddy skills are lacking (I have had this discussion with other "speed demon while never looking back" DMs, even when their behavior didn't cause problems).
Definitely talk to the LOA/OOA diver, but calmly and respectfully, preferable just the 2 of you. I've had 2 or 3 discussions like this, and in each case the diver was relieved to get the subject out in the open rather than being too embarrassed to talk about it.
 
humanFish:
I motion for him to go catch the DM, then I motion for him to just surface. He more or less shrugs and continues on after the DM.

Just to play devil's advocat for a moment:

Given that he was freshly refreshed and apparently paying attention to his air consumption, perhaps he had decided to ascend and intended only to inform you why he was leaving. A reasonable courtesy: He didn't "thumb" the dive to you because you were not his dive buddy, but he did show you his low air pressure before departing so you would know that there was no emergency and could continue your own dive. Given that his wife doesn't know some protocols on a dive boat, I wonder if he misinterpreted your signals as telling him he should advise the DM before surfacing? In other words, while you may have meant it as offering him a choice of action, he may have understood it as a required series of actions "tell DM first, then surface". The shrug of his shoulders may have been body language for "Well ok, that's not what I was taught but if you say so..."

Of course, that's all speculation and no-one will ever know now. I think it would have been worthwhile to talk with him later. You wouldn't be stepping on anyone's toes -- just clarifying the conversation between you and him.
 
humanFish:
1) What's up with DM's that seem to be solo divers with the "Just follow me" approach. In other words, what good is a DM if you can't even get their attention. I've seen about 15% of DM's that seem to act like this.

If you need a babysitter you should pay for a babysitter. Unless explicitly buddied WITH someone a divemaster should be an underwater tour guide. Anyone who requires looking after or instruction should pay extra and have their very own.
The dive conduct should be managed by the buddy pairs involved.
 
In this case, the DM WAS a buddy. AND apparently had no idea where her buddy was, what was happening behind her or if her tour group was even following... :11:

I think that even if the "tour guide" does not need to act like an instructor, they should still show some basic skills like management of a group and awareness of what is going on around them. In this case, if she had been aware of the situation but let them handle it, it would have been fine, but she was totally unaware, "35 feet ahead and not looking back". :11:
 
Doesn't a DM "lead" groups? Playing the leadership role (and being paid for it) involves a bit more than just being a tour guide, IMO.

Unfortunately I have also seen this tour guide mentality with a few DMs. They need to be weeded out IMO.

I should think everyone involved with diving qould want to do their part to keep it safe. Otherwise the lawyers and insurance companies step in and all divers will pay the price.
 
Firstly, I think you did a good job with all of it and during the event I probably would have done pretty much the same, because my first thoughts would be "what are you telling me for", and "I don't want to overstep the DM, go ask her". In armchair quarterback mode and after thinking about it for several minutes, I believe one good solution would have been to try to make them understand to do a swimming ascent to 15 feet while I chased after the DM to let her know.

On every boat dive I've had, the DM has asked beforehand if anyone needs a buddy and stated "I can either set you up with someone else or you can dive with me". At this point, I think that's the only thing I really fault her with; I personally feel that as the master of the dive she should have made sure everyone's role was sorted out. Conversely, I suppose one could argue that each diver should be responsible for raising that issue. Failing that, I can only come up with three possibilities:
1. She's a crappy buddy
2. She thought of the three of you as a dive trio
3. She determined that you were competent enough to be solo in the group

Without having been there, I would have to give her the benefit of the doubt and heavily discount the possibility of #1.

derwood brings up an excellent point, although, gosh, I can't imagine the possibility of miscommunication underwater!

Once it became apparent that he'd be my buddy for the next dive, I would probably have at the least told him, "don't be offended when I ask you frequently what your pressure is; I do that with all my buddies". I have to admit that I'd probably actually be comforted seeing firsthand that if he does run out of air he's not going to completely freak out, he does ok as an air recipient, and he's even ready for more after it happened (I think I might be shaken enough to call it a day). On a different boat you could just as easily get paired with someone who'd yank your primary from behind when you were on an exhale and then take you on an elevator ride.

Bottom line, I strongly feel that as certified divers we are each in charge of our dive (within the buddy team), regardless of whose fins we're chasing. Even if we're being guided by a DM or instructor acting as a DM, we're responsible for our own air management, navigation, and safety (did I omit anything?). The last time anyone else has any significant responsibility for any of us is during open water dive #4 (or whatever is appropriate to the certifying agency). With c-cards in hand we're supposed to know the rules and we're supposed to dive within our skills and limitations. Even if a divemaster talked me into doing something I didn't feel capable of, it's still really my responsibility unless s/he strapped me down, plummeted me to 150', and pulled me by my regulator into the wreck.

As far as your #3, I don't think 'lecture' is quite the right word, but I think the DMs I've been with would probably mention it with the intent of turning it into a good learning experience for everyone. I don't think of that as part of their job, but more as an 'above & beyond'. She might have felt that it was best not mentioned since she was so far out in front, or who knows - maybe she'd gotten chewed out the previous week for lecturing people.

On your #4, no, he definitely shouldn't have been penalized by not being allowed on the next dive - it's not like he was going up to people, ripping their regulators out, then swimming away while laughing maniacally. He ran out of air, it happens, that's why we're taught how to deal with it.

As to your #5, I would've waited on the bottom, too. I would cheerfully admit that it's not strictly within the purview of the buddy system, but I'd wait nonetheless.

With regard to your #1, my expectations of the DM are formed by my experience and my interpretation of the title 'dive master'. I see the dive master as being the overall organizer of the dive portion of the trip. I fully expect the dive master to give us an accurate, comprehensive pre-dive briefing, including where the currents are, what the depth is, what we're likely to see, and where the cool stuff is. Post dive, they're supposed to make sure everyone got back (with respect to the sport, not the court). That's what they're good for. Anything more than that is just gravy. Even if it's billed as a guided tour, well, even those 15% showed you stuff and got you back home, so at worst they earned a 'C', with B and A being handed out to the ones who go above and beyond. At no point should they treat you as less than a certified diver unless you act as such, and I don't think that anyone could even say that about mr. hoover.

Thanks for sharing.
 
All id expect from a DM is a comprehensive site briefing and if theyre in the water too as a tour guide to show the interesting sites.

What i dont expect:- Constant babysitting or interfering with person or pairs or them zooming off at 100mph doing "their own dive" without giving others the time to stop or see something.

If someone wants attention above normal buddy pairing then they should pay extra to buddy with DM or dive with their own personal instructor or dm.
 
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