First time without an instructor?

[Blowin Da Bubbl]

My personal opinion would be to at least have rescue diver or equivalent, I believe that people should aim to get this even if they are diving with a dm or instructor as an unconcious instructor for example couldnt help you.
And before anyone suggests otherwise... NO I'm not just trying to push the old con-ed!!

Just to explain why I said what I said......
I am extrememely comfortable and was the top student in my class. I also assisted the instructor at times during the class due to how quickly I took to diving and it's skills. My first dive without an instructor or d/m was the same NIGHT!!! and yep I am not certified as a night diver. Also it was to a depth of 85' and my rec limit is supposed to be 40'.I fully expect to be razzed about this but hey read previous post and you will no how I feel about opinions based on assumptions of what one is capable of. Furthermore the following week I was doing work dives for the park rangers at Lake travis to depths of 65' followed by another night dive to 93'.one month and 20 dives later I led a dive to 113'. Bash me if you wish but the best is yet to come. This weekend I intend to take a look at the jail cells at the dam . I believe that should take me to 140' to 160' .W/O aow, rescue, night,oxy admin and the like. I will have 2 very experienced divers there and we may do some deco as well. As I said before it is ones own ability and comfort level that deem what they should get into. It is your own responsibility to weigh your options and decide what is right for you. By all means the fact that this post was began denotes a level of hesitation and un comfort about the lack of d/m or instructor for that individual . But I have had more dives total before aow than tis individual. I was also told to get 25 dives under my belt before proceeding to aow .But that due to my ability this was retracted and I was told he would teach me immeadiately. C-card = licsense to learn . It's not a set of brass balls. nor is it a badge of courage .It is a release form that makes you responsible for your own actions . I can accept responsibility for mine w/o question or an instructor. Good buddies are a plus imho and I wouldn't trade mine for the world.We gel well and if you aint got that you begin to understand why some dive alone . As for me I do not and will not until I aquire a pony tank. For the record I plan on a 30 cube most I know use a 19cube and say I dont need 30 .
The key to personal safety is becomming your own best buddy through redundancy . I understand the science and am extremely comfortable doing what I do . If I wasn't I wouldn't be doing it . So to the rest I say if ya aint comfortable turn ya dive ,dont start the dive and by all means get the false sense of protection sheep get from a sheppard and dive fun dives with an instructor. But when they dont save your but they say it aint there fault . read the mo fatality thread in cave diving.You will also find my opinion on that topic there. Why must all make this seem so difficut ..........

B.D.B.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

BDB - all well and good. One of my best dive buddies never got more than a PADI OW certification, and he's an excellent diver. On the other hand, he's gained tremendous education through the process of logging hundreds of dives.

Another dive buddy, and former student, is a natural (apparently like yourself) who just "got it" right out of the starting gate. Her skills are impressive ... show her something once and she does it perfectly every time. I have no hesitancy taking her into advanced conditions, despite the fact that she's only been diving four months and has only logged about 80 dives so far.

On the other hand, in the latter case I do discourage her from going on certain dives unless she's with me or someone similarly experienced. It isn't her skills that are a concern, it's the lack of context. Diving is as much about judgement as it is about skills. The only downside to "getting it" so easily is that you haven't yet had a chance to figure out where your limits are ... or what circumstances and conditions should cause you to decide to call a dive. That can get you into trouble.

It's the flip side of the problem expressed by the author of this thread ... having too much confidence can also be a problem ... because you don't know how much you haven't had time to learn yet.

I'd never discourage you, or my new diving friend, from doing the kind of dives you're describing (except that we do deeper dives on EAN and don't go below 130 fsw) ... but I would encourage anyone to train and equip themselves properly before pushing it to that level. Natural ability won't get you out of a jam if you're not adequately trained and equipped for the type of diving you're doing.

And it's also important to choose a dive buddy who's got the skills, training, and mindset to handle the dive you're doing. That's where new divers often run into trouble ... trying to be "compatible" with someone they've probably no business diving with in the first place.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[daylight]

Grateful Diver,
Well said!

Da Bubble,
A huge part of doing challenging dives is predicated upon attitude and demonstrated maturity to deal with unexpected events. You are absolutely correct that you can accept responsibility for you own actions. What you are espousing is a recipe for disaster. If the "very experienced" buddies are knowingly partcipating in this adventure, I then question their maturity.
Good Luck
Larry

 

[Blowin Da Bubbl]

BDB - all well and good. One of my best dive buddies never got more than a PADI OW certification, and he's an excellent diver. On the other hand, he's gained tremendous education through the process of logging hundreds of dives.

Another dive buddy, and former student, is a natural (apparently like yourself) who just "got it" right out of the starting gate. Her skills are impressive ... show her something once and she does it perfectly every time. I have no hesitancy taking her into advanced conditions, despite the fact that she's only been diving four months and has only logged about 80 dives so far.

On the other hand, in the latter case I do discourage her from going on certain dives unless she's with me or someone similarly experienced. It isn't her skills that are a concern, it's the lack of context. Diving is as much about judgement as it is about skills. The only downside to "getting it" so easily is that you haven't yet had a chance to figure out where your limits are ... or what circumstances and conditions should cause you to decide to call a dive. That can get you into trouble.

It's the flip side of the problem expressed by the author of this thread ... having too much confidence can also be a problem ... because you don't know how much you haven't had time to learn yet.

I'd never discourage you, or my new diving friend, from doing the kind of dives you're describing (except that we do deeper dives on EAN and don't go below 130 fsw) ... but I would encourage anyone to train and equip themselves properly before pushing it to that level. Natural ability won't get you out of a jam if you're not adequately trained and equipped for the type of diving you're doing.

And it's also important to choose a dive buddy who's got the skills, training, and mindset to handle the dive you're doing. That's where new divers often run into trouble ... trying to be "compatible" with someone they've probably no business diving with in the first place.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Here her I agree with you totally and it supports exactly what I have been saying here .I am doing this with not one but 2 very accomplished divers. I have pushed it but slowly and never beyond my understanding of the science and commitment involved . TY for your response very well put with being a put down or an instructors ploy to derive revinue. Some do need all the training they can get some will never have enough training because they just don't get it. The mark of a truely good instructor imho is the one who can see the difference in his students. That in itself means more than any card. The card simply means the info was covered not that it was retained or practice enough.......
TY again , your words were appreciated as well as your approach......

B.D.B.

 

[Blowin Da Bubbl]

Grateful Diver,
Well said!

Da Bubble,
A huge part of doing challenging dives is predicated upon attitude and demonstrated maturity to deal with unexpected events. You are absolutely correct that you can accept responsibility for you own actions. What you are espousing is a recipe for disaster. If the "very experienced" buddies are knowingly partcipating in this adventure, I then question their maturity.
Good Luck
Larry

I don't think I have stated a recipe for disaster at all . I believe that from a quick explanation you have made some assumptions here about people you don't know and have never dove with . Although I respect your opinion I don't think you are qualified to call me or the people I dive with immature based solely on my one stetement here. That is a bit more of a leap of faith than I think one is entitled to make, without fear of contradiction. We have talked this through amongst ourselves and have it planned out to the tee. We know the area quite well and can navigate there regaurdless of vis 1'-infinity. I have worked on aow skills read the books and dove with my instructor beyond class . I have gained practical experience in several certification areas based on my desire to learn and my suceptability to absorb knowledge. Now I could spend money on this and get the cards wich I plan to do but cannot afford at this time due to my wants to be self sufficient gear wise. Call me immature if you will ,if thats what you believe I have demonstrated at this time. Question their maturity as well, if you must .But to be honest with you I don't think it was called for and I resent the statement .I would not leap to make the judgement that you were closed minded simply because I perked your ears with a statement I full well expected to illicit this type of response. I don't believe thats true. I have long carried myself with more maturity than that of my peers as well as being wise beyond my years . People often mistake me for older than I am, due to my meticulous nature and an inherant ability to think on my feet. My attitude, is one of comfort not overconfidence. Coupled ,with a healthy dose of respect for the task at hand. You act as though I am going into this blindly ,like some little kid jumping off a bridge because his buddies said so. Nothing could be further from the truth. This has been in the planning stages some 3 weeks . It is something I feel I am ready for . We will have nitrox and oxy both available for deco as well as an emergency . We will also be staging tanks. If vis is poor I will probably call the dive and stick to around 120'.which I have done with no problems and in complete control with only 3 feet of vis. I started out and have til now dove tables .I intend to do tables first wich I will note on slate. I intend to keep track of it with b/t. I have also purchased an oceanic dive computer and will be using it but not relying on it.
I will also be carrying a pony tank. Weight and trim is good. Air consumption has improved immensely. I dive smooth , slow and cautious . I have practiced overhead on every dive since o/w. as well as situations around other hazrads I have ran across.Even bc removal for penetration into small wrecks such as 27' sailboat hatches .I will be doing some work dives for the rangers as well over the course of the weekend with regaurd to marking some under water hazards and concrete weights they would like to recover. I ran across a sealed 55 gallon drum (contents unknown) I will be marking for them as well. This dive park area is his baby so to speak and if he found me immature I ceartainly dont think he would have me working in any capacity for the park service . Of course most park rangers I know are pretty immature I suppose. Especially those I have dove with and for. I will be sure and say hello Sunday night when I return home so you will know I didnt cap myself .I will now make an assumption. More than likely you will say or think I was lucky not to mention what a fool I was for doing it . Then what do most old guys who like to call people 10 or more years their junior "whip er snappers" and wet behind the ears say "GUPPYS NEVER LEARN" or "KIDS NEVER LEARN" oh and "THEY THINK THEY ARE INVINCEable"
I plan my dives sir and I dive my plans . I usually dive them conservitavely. So when am I ready ? Please tell me. Because obviously I am to immature to know. I am not the norm or so I thought. But surely someone who doesnt even know me knows me better than I. Not to metion the "2 buddies" who never typed a word . Sorry for rambling and getting a tad defensive but who are you to question my mod when I never asked for your help. Quite frankly I understand why those of you with more experience and practical knowledge do it. I have seen the other end of the spectrum student wise. One of my best friends certified with me and he just doesnt get it.I see it in him and he lies to me about his comfort level. I have turned dives with him for this reason so I do realize when to turn a dive at some level . I know this because he admitted it later. I was dead on. I just get sick of the lecture. When I have a question I assure you I will ask . I want to learn and am not afraid to ask for help I just don't have any questions at the moment .The more I dive the more specific my questions will be . But the constant lectures on the obvious is an insult to my intelligence. I appreciate it but can't we discuss something more intelligent than how mature someone may or not be?

Damon
a.k.a Blowin Da Bubbles

P.S. I have no problem diving with you . You are welcome here in Austin any time. Dive deep ,dive safe and have fun. Lets camp ,dive ,chat and enjoy good company . I will be more apt to listen once you get to know me and I think we would both have a bit more respect for one another . My intention was not to offend . I hope you can understand that. I don't think yours was either but the insinuation rubbed me the wrong way.... I hope I won't be dependant on luck but ty for your good wishing upon me.Come up and stay sometime so we can blow some bubbles.....

 

[daylight]

Damon,
As I previously stated, you can accept responsibility for your actions. Other than cautioning you that your planning to incur a decompression obligation is high risk, I could honestly care less. Your defensiveness speaks volumes.
Good Luck and enjoy your dive.
Larry

 

[MikeFerrara]

BDB,

160 ft, O2 decompression, staging tanks, pony bottle...no questions...

you may know what you're doing but it doesn't sound like it. No offense but it sounds like you are just unaware of just how much you don't know.

There are ways other than classes to learn and knowledge and experience are what's important. The one thing good about a class though is that at least it provides a list of the things you should know and the skills you should have.

 

[doole]

I'm going to add one more thought. (Hope you're still reading, L.

Based on the quality of some of the instruction that was foisted on my buddy & I over the years, you might actually better off without an instructor. As somebody on here always says, the best dive tool you have is the one between your ears.

Just keep your eyes open, always know where your buddy is and watch your gauges. Everyhting will be fine; you've already demonstrated that you think about it more than most.

 

[Blowin Da Bubbl]

I'm going to add one more thought. (Hope you're still reading, L.

Based on the quality of some of the instruction that was foisted on my buddy & I over the years, you might actually better off without an instructor. As somebody on here always says, the best dive tool you have is the one between your ears.

Just keep your eyes open, always know where your buddy is and watch your gauges. Everyhting will be fine; you've already demonstrated that you think about it more than most.

TY doole,

Well it went great... No problems at all.. will be getting AOW next week as well. Then I look forward to doing my rescue and EMT over the next couple of months . Hooked up weith a great bunch of guys went on my first boat dive with them,"at night". They had a really nice boat and my dive buddy has been diving 30 years and is an R.O.V. tech . It made me feel really good that he went out of his way to thank me for a great dive and to tell me how comfortable with me he was. He also thanked me for being concerned due to the fact he was shiviring by the time we got there to dive despite being in a dry suit. They were all wide eyed and amazed that I am so hot natured I was able to dive 51 degrees in a 6.5 mil shorty. I thought that was funny as hell that they were cold and I wasn't but I asked my buddy twice if he wanted to
turn the dive .He said he wanted to warm up kicking and he would be fine but he thanked me and made sure that all the intructors in the group got to hear it saying " yea man I appriciated him being aware and thinking enough to give me the chance w/o being pressured ." The anchor wasn't catching and they asked me to go get it hung since my partner was boyant in the dry suit and we had no more weight I brought him a rock while I bounced for the anchor. We had an excellent time good camping good food good contacts music and conversation. Did 4 dives total . 1st was 148' Saturday afternoon then 79'
that night .went to 133' the next day and finished up with a 60'. All in all a great weekend . The bubbles have all been blown and its back to work I go .
To all have a great week for those who have spoke in my best intrest I ty and if you met me all I can say is you would not be so quick to judge . TY doole for acknowledgeing the point I have been trying to make . I appreciate your open mindedness and wisdom to see I am applying myself and in a safe way allbeit faster than most . I hope to attain d/m in the next 6mos. to a year.
Anyway good night all. I have climbed many stairs this weekend and quite franky with the lift closed at the dam I am tired.

Blowin Da Bubbles

 

[DORSETBOY]

It's good for divers to get out of the comfort zone and take more responsiblity for their own diving without pro supervision. However, before diving in different conditions and/or with different equuipment it makes sense to be taught properly.
Why relearn from other divers mistakes, ie. why be so stupid as to do a night dive having never been taught the techniques and procedures involved. It's idiots who do things like that whom give diving a dangerous reputation.