Frog kick efficiency

[BlueTrin]

Hi, during a class it was highlighted that I don’t have a very good frog kick efficiency.

Apparently I don’t extend my legs far enough and as a result I don’t push hard enough to glide.

The instructor mentioned that it is probably a combination of these factors:

• I seem to be slightly negative and compensate with my lungs
• It was mentioned I am maybe too flat trim and should have my legs a bit lower actually, apparently I have sometimes too much air accumulating in my drysuit legs

My buddy mentioned that he only needs about 1 frog kick to do the same distance than 2 of mine.

Also I noticed that when I finish my kick, I don’t feel very stable, like if I was rolling a bit. It’s possible that this may be due to having a bit too much air in my legs: the diving here is around 4-5m depth average, I find it weirdly challenging to dump gas from my drysuit so close to the surface and hold legs extended long enough to dump at a shallow depth. Maybe I need to practice this more.

It has been hard to correct these because I have been having these bad habits for too long. Also I have been doing quite a bit of other adjustments recently so it’s all compounding.

I was wondering if anyone here had ideas or drills to speed up the learning process and get an efficient frog kick.

 

[The Chairman]

The best frogkick feedback is through the bottom of your big toes. When you feel the pressure there, you'll move. Make sure you're angling your ankles as much as possible to feel that pressure.

Sure, knees slightly down and bent is best for non-silting, but not for power.

 

[BlueTrin]

The best frogkick feedback is through the bottom of your big toes. When you feel the pressure there, you'll move. Make sure you're angling your ankles as much as possible to feel that pressure.

Sure, knees slightly down and bent is best for non-silting, but not for power.

Ah I forgot to mention this too: I think I may lack enough ankle flexibility to incline the fins when bringing them together. Is there some kind of stretch I can add to my gym routine for that?

 

[Joneill]

Hi, during a class it was highlighted that I don’t have a very good frog kick efficiency.

Apparently I don’t extend my legs far enough and as a result I don’t push hard enough to glide.

The instructor mentioned that it is probably a combination of these factors:

• I seem to be slightly negative and compensate with my lungs
• It was mentioned I am maybe too flat trim and should have my legs a bit lower actually, apparently I have sometimes too much air accumulating in my drysuit legs

My buddy mentioned that he only needs about 1 frog kick to do the same distance than 2 of mine.

Also I noticed that when I finish my kick, I don’t feel very stable, like if I was rolling a bit. It’s possible that this may be due to having a bit too much air in my legs: the diving here is around 4-5m depth average, I find it weirdly challenging to dump gas from my drysuit so close to the surface and hold legs extended long enough to dump at a shallow depth. Maybe I need to practice this more.

It has been hard to correct these because I have been having these bad habits for too long. Also I have been doing quite a bit of other adjustments recently so it’s all compounding.

I was wondering if anyone here had ideas or drills to speed up the learning process and get an efficient frog kick.

If at all possible, have someone video you while diving so you can see what you are doing - easiest way to see where you need to make changes.

 

[The Chairman]

I think I may lack enough ankle flexibility to incline the fins when bringing them together.

Get a 2 pound ankle weight and wrap it around your foot as close to your toes as you can. While sitting watching TV, rotate your ankle in and out. Go for ten minutes a side every day and watch your improvement. There's actually an ankle flexion weight machine out there that higher end fitness centers may have. The RDV Sportsplex in Orlando had one.

 

[Underwater Tourist]

Ah I forgot to mention this too: I think I may lack enough ankle flexibility to incline the fins when bringing them together. Is there some kind of stretch I can add to my gym routine for that?

Stand up, put your heels together, and spread open your feet (ballerina style).

If you can open them 120ish degrees you are definitely good. And remember that when you scoop water with your fins, it doesn't have to come only from the angled ankles. Spreading the legs a little and slightly pivoting your knees outwards can add to the scooping action.

Also I noticed that when I finish my kick, I don’t feel very stable, like if I was rolling a bit.

I assume this happens as you stop gliding, because right after you performed the kick, there should be enough speed to stabilize you. So if it does happen at the end, maybe again try spreading your fins slightly to help your balance.

---

As for re-learning bad habits, I find it super helpful (not just in diving) to do visualizations. Mentally execute a proper frog kick focusing on the muscles that work during each step. And just do it 10-20 times at home, no need to be in the water. Or you can do frog kick lying in bed, and filming your legs to check that they move like you think they do (watch a couple of bogaerts vids on youtube and try to mimic?).

--

Edit: without a video it will be just guesses where the issue is

 

[John C. Ratliff]

There are a couple of other things to think about. First, what kind of fins are you using. Some fins are not compatible with a frog kick.

There are two ways of kicking the frog kick. One is with the top of the foot/fin, the other with the bottom of the foot/fin. Which have you been taught and/or are trying?

Third, the frog kick was designed for technical diving, and used inside wrecks and in caves to avoid kicking up silt. This, in my opinion, is an advanced scuba technique for technical diving. I rarely use a frog kick, unless I’m trying to practice it. But divers are now being taught the frog kick during basic scuba, as they are trying to get divers into advanced courses very quickly. The so-called flutter kick, and the dolphin kick, are much more efficient styles of kicking. But they will stir up a silty bottom if not very careful.

SeaRat

 

[Graeme Fraser]

Hi, during a class it was highlighted that I don’t have a very good frog kick efficiency.

Apparently I don’t extend my legs far enough and as a result I don’t push hard enough to glide.

The instructor mentioned that it is probably a combination of these factors:

• I seem to be slightly negative and compensate with my lungs
• It was mentioned I am maybe too flat trim and should have my legs a bit lower actually, apparently I have sometimes too much air accumulating in my drysuit legs

My buddy mentioned that he only needs about 1 frog kick to do the same distance than 2 of mine.

Also I noticed that when I finish my kick, I don’t feel very stable, like if I was rolling a bit. It’s possible that this may be due to having a bit too much air in my legs: the diving here is around 4-5m depth average, I find it weirdly challenging to dump gas from my drysuit so close to the surface and hold legs extended long enough to dump at a shallow depth. Maybe I need to practice this more.

It has been hard to correct these because I have been having these bad habits for too long. Also I have been doing quite a bit of other adjustments recently so it’s all compounding.

I was wondering if anyone here had ideas or drills to speed up the learning process and get an efficient frog kick.

Just a thought @BlueTrin ; you mentioned maybe having too much air in the legs of your drysuit. Are your feet snug in the foot pocket or is there quite a lot of room? This is quite common with the ubiquitous heavy duty boot fitted to many drysuits. If so, you might find that much of your ankle angling to achieve an efficient frog kick is being wasted inside the boot and not transferred to the fin itself.

Have you tried frog kicking in a wetsuit with a snug bootie and suitable fin? Obviously not to replace the drysuit, but by way of a comparison. If this provides better frogkick results, it may point to a suit rather than skills issue.

Also, if your legs are quite lofty due to trapped air, you may be subconsciously be dropping your knees to offset the sensation of pitching forward on the power stroke.

Apologies if this sounds like rambling nonsense, it made sense in my head .

 

[Sebs]

If at all possible, have someone video you while diving so you can see what you are doing - easiest way to see where you need to make changes.

This is what helped me I prove my frog kicks. We practiced for hours on dry land (lying on a bench) and it seemed fine. Then underwater my instructor told me I am scissor kicking and not frog kicking. I couldn't figure it out until he showed me a video.

I was also bending my knees way too much at the contraction phase of the kick. I probably still suck but a lot of issues can be fixed by just seeing yourself doing it wrong.

 

[The Chairman]

I probably still suck but a lot of issues can be fixed by just seeing yourself doing it wrong.

It's a kick. If you're moving forward and not silting out the place, relax and have fun. Committing to the frog kick is the biggest hurdle. Once you make it "your kick", proficiency will follow. Yes, video helps, but if you're moving forward and not silting out the place, please, please don't beat yourself up over it. DIF=> Do It Fun.