Getting a Dive Master and/or Instructor

[MikeFerrara]

In the US PADI only requires DM's to have insurance if they will be conducting programs independantly. However that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have it.

You might want to get your hands on a book titled "The Law and the Dive Pro". I'm not a lawyer either but I think it gives a good overview of the legal risks and how to manage them.

 

[diverdown247]

MikeFerrara, empty your message box. I'd like an author name for Law and the Dive Pro or an IBSN, thanks.

I've been researching the insurance issue with this exact question in mind.

Technically, the liability would only lie on you if you are diving with a less experienced "buddy" and not in a chartered group (not you in charge or working). But then again, as the more experienced diver, even w/o the DM cert, you would be quite a bit more responsible for issues on a dive.

The way it was explained to me yesterday was this:
If you go on a dive trip, like on a cruise ship or charter, if they do not request to know that you are a DM and have their own, you are supposed to be released from liability because you are not the person required to meet the requirements for reasonable expected care. However, in the event of a dive emergency, as a DM you can make yourself liable for a failure to act. This would apply for ANY certification that requires Emergency Response/First Aid as part of it's core/prerequisites.

It makes sense when you look at it that way. On the other hand, I have heard of some dive centers requesting you present your highest cert level so they can become familiar with who in a charter group has emergency training.

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

MikeFerrara, empty your message box. I'd like an author name for Law and the Dive Pro or an IBSN, thanks.

I've been researching the insurance issue with this exact question in mind.

Technically, the liability would only lie on you if you are diving with a less experienced "buddy" and not in a chartered group (not you in charge or working). But then again, as the more experienced diver, even w/o the DM cert, you would be quite a bit more responsible for issues on a dive.

The way it was explained to me yesterday was this:
If you go on a dive trip, like on a cruise ship or charter, if they do not request to know that you are a DM and have their own, you are supposed to be released from liability because you are not the person required to meet the requirements for reasonable expected care. However, in the event of a dive emergency, as a DM you can make yourself liable for a failure to act. This would apply for ANY certification that requires Emergency Response/First Aid as part of it's core/prerequisites.

It makes sense when you look at it that way. On the other hand, I have heard of some dive centers requesting you present your highest cert level so they can become familiar with who in a charter group has emergency training.

This is interesting! We've had CMAS***/DM's with us on our trips on several occasions, and in two cases PADI DM's were at first reluctant to show their DM certs and only said they were RD's... I find this a bit amusing, as this would have no practical implications what so ever in our country. So my question is, how much does US liability laws influence on the PADI education of DM's/OWI's?

Every PADI course includes having students to sign a "waiver" (Did I spell that right?). Again this has no effect on a Norwegian court descission, and in some cases it's even illegal to make participants sign such a document to release the organiser of an activity from liability. Of course one can make them sign a document which states they've understood the risks involved and that they've understood the information they've been presented, but nothing more.

 

[MikeFerrara]

MikeFerrara, empty your message box. I'd like an author name for Law and the Dive Pro or an IBSN, thanks.

I'm on my way out the door to work so I probably won't get the box cleaned out this morning. I'd have to dig up my copy to get the info anyway. PADI sells the book so you might try their web site or catalog.

 

[Matt P]

Every PADI course includes having students to sign a "waiver" (Did I spell that right?). Again this has no effect on a Norwegian court descission, and in some cases it's even illegal to make participants sign such a document to release the organiser of an activity from liability. Of course one can make them sign a document which states they've understood the risks involved and that they've understood the information they've been presented, but nothing more.

If a participant signs a waiver in the US it may state that the participant waives their right to hold an operator responsible. This waiver is sometimes upheld by the court and sometimes it is not, depending on the circumstances. What a participant CANNOT do is waive the rights of their family & heirs to sue the operator. In the US you cannot sign a contract that takes away another person's rights.

 

[ClayJar]

As it seems to be tangentially relevant to the discussion, might anyone be able to put a purely anecdotal approximate number on the cost of liability insurance for a DM? I have always wondered, but it seems that the first rule of DM liability insurance is to not talk about the cost of DM liability insurance.

(Obviously, any potential answers to this question will almost certainly include the disclaimer that they may not be representative, but *something* is better than nothing, as at least the order of magnitude should be reasonable, eh?)

 

[ItsBruce]

Here we go again on liability issues. There is already a lot on it on SB. I submitted an article on the topic to Pete and am just waiting for him to "publish" it. I've got another article ready to do relative to liability insurance and what you can expect from your own homeowners or renters' insurance carrier.

 

[Atticus]

Vicentia & Buckley is one of the more common insurance agencies for PADI dive masters. Their price sheet can be found at http://www.diveinsurance.com/downloads/PL-2006-07.pdf. For a normal dive master policy you're looking at $325/year. For assisting only insurance (an instructor most always be present) you're looking at $215/year.

The book Mike referenced, The Law and the Diving Professional is written by E. Stevens Coren, J.D. and is ISBN 1-878663-19-4.

 

[UWupnorth]

This is interesting! We've had CMAS***/DM's with us on our trips on several occasions, and in two cases PADI DM's were at first reluctant to show their DM certs and only said they were RD's... I find this a bit amusing, as this would have no practical implications what so ever in our country. So my question is, how much does US liability laws influence on the PADI education of DM's/OWI's?

Every PADI course includes having students to sign a "waiver" (Did I spell that right?). Again this has no effect on a Norwegian court descission, and in some cases it's even illegal to make participants sign such a document to release the organiser of an activity from liability. Of course one can make them sign a document which states they've understood the risks involved and that they've understood the information they've been presented, but nothing more.

Sometimes divers show only the minimum required cert. so as not to get buddied up with divers of little experience.

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

Sometimes divers show only the minimum required cert. so as not to get buddied up with divers of little experience.

Yeah that could be the case sometimes, but not with us as they came with their own buddies. My point as a European was rather that PADI is more American than the US Army, and that this might/might not influence on the DM/OWI education concerning liability issues. And for me to be presented such "American" waiver in my own country, under Norwegian law, just seems amusing as it would have no effect in any liability court case. I am only half way reading up to my DM myself, and I haven't really looked at the law & liability chapter in the books...:11: (Getting there soon I suppose)