Is it OK for a non instructor to do a refresher?

[boulderjohn]

I think the risk in leading a refresher dive is something going wrong during that dive. I logged training dives to show that nothing of health consequences happened on the dive. I can't recall an instance when something went wrong on later dives and people went after a previous instructor for a lack of competence.

IIRC, there was some question about the quality of instruction provided to both Gabe and Tina Watson when Tina drowned in Australia shortly after certification. Her husband's attempts at rescue were so very incompetent that he was accused of deliberately killing her. It was eventually determined that no, the two were just wholly incompetent divers. Gabe was a NASDS-certified Rescue Diver, and he had gotten all his training from the same instructor who certified Tina, and reports indicated that the amount of time spent on instruction in those classes was not enough to meet standards. Yet, other than people shaking their heads sadly, nothing was done, and I don't see how anything could have been done.

The people who did get in legal trouble in that case was the dive operation. They allowed the two to skip the supposedly required checkout dive because of Gabe's certification level. So it was the people involved in the dive itself who were at legal risk, not the evidently incompetent instructor.

 

[Still Kicking]

And hear is the rub of the matter. If things went pear shaped, any half decent lawyer would ask what professional training you had to assess whether a skill was performed correctly. You could be putting your assets, including pension funding up for grabs.

I should have been clearer -- I provided a letter to students when I was a current instructor and carried full insurance etc.

Not really germane to the original subject of informal refreshers.

 

[RobPNW]

Remember when people were accountable for their own decisions in life? One of the biggest problems with the world today. I can't even imagine suing someone who tried to help me out and keep me safe if I ended up getting hurt. On the other hand, if a piece of life safety rental gear fails and it's clear the dive op repeatedly neglected maintenance, that might be a different thing.

 

[boulderjohn]

Remember when people were accountable for their own decisions in life?

No.

I can't even imagine suing someone who tried to help me out and keep me safe if I ended up getting hurt.

It wouldn't be you. It would be your family.

 

[Gone for diving]

It wouldn't be you. It would be your family.

Mine are not allowed to.

 

[happy-diver]

IIRC, there was some question about the quality of instruction provided to both Gabe and Tina Watson when Tina drowned in Australia shortly after certification.

The most concise bestest read you'll all have dudes

Michael McFadyen's Scuba Diving Web Site

A conclusion, something for those on accidents and incidents that with No facts talk incessantly for pages
For No result

 

[Edward3c]

Mine are not allowed to.

If you’re paraplegic or brain injured they’ll need money to care for you, how would you stop them?

 

[ballsie]

I have a couple friends who are certified divers but have not been in the water for a long time.
Both of them recently have expressed interest in starting back up.

One guy got certified about 4 years ago and dived once since then in Hawaii using rental gear. He has his own gear which I originally set him up with (Freedom plate with VDH 35 wing, MK25 with a G250 and R190, G/B SPG) but he didn’t want to take it??
Anyway, I was there in Monterey when he got certified, I dived with him and a few others and led them around on a little tour of the metridium fields on their last day. He’s a natural and was also a freediver/ab diver so he’s pretty good in the water.
But I’m not sure I’m comfortable just taking him out scuba diving off our coast doing a beach dive just yet.
I’d like to see some basic skills performed in a pool first.

The other guy got certified probably over 20 to 25 years ago and has not dived in a long time.
He was also a local abalone freediver and has scuba dived up at Sea Ranch a few times. He has access to a pool, but has no gear other than a wetsuit. I know nothing about him other than what he tells me.

My question is: Is it OK to get these guys into the pool and go over some skills with them and maybe go over some fundamental physiology even though I’m not an instructor? They are both certified so technically they could rent tanks and gear and go diving on their own if they wanted.
Or do you think I’m just setting myself up?

Your setting your self up
Tell your friends to spend the cash and do the correct refresher course. When it goes wrong the fingers will point a you for sure

 

[ballsie]

what a great question. and a very interesting one. the correct answer may depend on where you live and how the laws are applied there.

first, if you were planning on joining a pool session run by a local dive shop, but not paying for the help of an instructor, i would assume the shop would not allow this. i certainly wouldn't.

second, if you were going to rent your own private pool space, and no one else was there but yourself and your two possible dive buddies, then perhaps that would be ok ?? or would it ??

third, if you ever held any pro certification at any time in the past, but are currently not active (and have no insurance) i would not do it. i know i wouldn't. the only exception for me would be if it was my spouse i was helping.

fourth, perhaps the newer diver might be able to get by with only a refresher. but the one who was certified 20 years ago should probably consider redoing the whole course.

here is a long example that may or may not help you decide:

i went on vacation a few years back with my spouse and my brother. i was an active instructor at the time. my spouse also dives. but my brother had not been diving in many years.
i had pleaded with him to get a proper refresher before the trip (he lives in a different city than i do). he chose not to.
once we met on holiday, we all decided to do a couple of easy/shallow shore dives together. other than a few really basic tasks i helped him with (like putting the gear together) he would not let me run him through even the most basic drills (mask clear / reg clear etc). we are men right? so we don't need any help from anyone. lol
the first daytime shore dive was fine. we also did a night dive there as well. he really enjoyed that one. but him and i did become briefly separated on the day dive and he ended up at the surface. that was my first warning.
he decided he wanted to do a double tank reef dive. we booked the easy afternoon boat. schedule got screwed up and we were not on that boat. our only other option was the next morning. i did not realize they put us on the advanced small boat instead of the larger slow boat. this was my second warning.
that morning the boat arrived early for some reason and we almost missed it. no it was not our fault at all. but it caused us to have to rush to get everything on board etc. we were also delayed because the shop gave me the wrong tanks i had pre booked (i was diving sm). so the whole process had my brother very agitated and obviously frustrated. warning number three.
at the first dive site we entered the water together and began the decent. he lost control and was descending too quickly, he panicked, and bolted to the surface from about 30 feet.
i slowly ascended and asked how i could help. he was beyond help and had to stay with the boat. i descended solo, caught up to the guide and buddied with him.
my brother somehow convinced the boat captain to drag him (while he was still in the water) over top of our group. he then descended solo and appeared out of nowhere to my surprise. he seemed ok. i had him hold my waist d-ring to avoid getting separated.
everything seemed fine until he suddenly, without warning, let go and again bolted to the surface from what was probably 60 feet or so.
we could see he made the surface and the boat immediately came to him so we completed the dive.
needless to say, he did not even attempt the second dive.

so what is my point?

no matter what the law might say, do you really want to take any type of responsibility for either of those two divers?

yes, a certified diver is, and should be, responsible for their own decisions. but does the more seasoned diver (even if they are not a professional) not have at least some type of moral/ethic responsibility when agreeing to dive with another certified diver that is clearly not ready to be back in the water?

i think what we can do to help protect each other is to make sure that divers in this situation at the very least get some guidance from a trained dive pro before jumping back in the water after being away from the sport.

if they refuse to do so, maybe the best thing we could do to help them (and protect ourselves) is to say "no. i won't dive with you".

just fyi.....i have been diving over 30 years and was a pro level diver for about the last 10 years, and i never go diving on vacation without getting in the pool with my spouse first to check our gear, and run us both through the basics.

my story could have turned out quite badly. i won't put myself or another diver in that situation again if it can be avoided.

As a certified diver you are responsible for your own safety, as a qualified instructor , you are reaponsible for your uncertified student end off

 

[Paul Desmarais]

I have a couple friends who are certified divers but have not been in the water for a long time.
Both of them recently have expressed interest in starting back up.

One guy got certified about 4 years ago and dived once since then in Hawaii using rental gear. He has his own gear which I originally set him up with (Freedom plate with VDH 35 wing, MK25 with a G250 and R190, G/B SPG) but he didn’t want to take it??
Anyway, I was there in Monterey when he got certified, I dived with him and a few others and led them around on a little tour of the metridium fields on their last day. He’s a natural and was also a freediver/ab diver so he’s pretty good in the water.
But I’m not sure I’m comfortable just taking him out scuba diving off our coast doing a beach dive just yet.
I’d like to see some basic skills performed in a pool first.

The other guy got certified probably over 20 to 25 years ago and has not dived in a long time.
He was also a local abalone freediver and has scuba dived up at Sea Ranch a few times. He has access to a pool, but has no gear other than a wetsuit. I know nothing about him other than what he tells me.

My question is: Is it OK to get these guys into the pool and go over some skills with them and maybe go over some fundamental physiology even though I’m not an instructor? They are both certified so technically they could rent tanks and gear and go diving on their own if they wanted.
Or do you think I’m just setting myself up?

I would answer this with a wholehearted 'no!'

I recently did exactly what you are suggesting and it was awful. I am fairly experienced - about 150 logged dives, and I had a friend certified some time ago, who had not been diving in a few years. He struggled recalling basic things and I did not think ask him... a certified instructor would have been more systematic about his preparation and started at the very basics. I took my friend's word that all he needed was al ittle guidance, and that was not at all the case.

He struggled with his buoyancy, his weighting, equalizing... He ended up aborting 3 dives and on the dives we did complete together, I felt more like a nanny than a buddy.

If you haven't been diving for a while, do yourself and your friends a favor and do a refresher that includes an open water component with a certified instructor. I ended the dive trip thinking 'never again!' which is not what anyone wants.