Help With The First Bp/w Rig

[Roman K]

Hi All,

I've been reading the forums for about a year now and wanted to say a great thank you to all members - not having a big diving community around this is my key source of information and inspiration!

I currently dive with a back-inflate jacket (Axiom) BCD and am more and more interested in switching to DIR. While it looks like it will take a while to get through Fundies (it's not that easy to get people for a class here), I'm keen to get a proper rig to get used to it before the class.

I dive only in warm salty waters here in the GCC with temps varying from 22 to 32. So the exposure suits vary from a rash-guard/t-shirt to 3mm at the coldest times. I do mostly wrecks with some occasional penetrations. I do travel a bit around the region and am planning to dive in Asia so weight might be a concern.
I doubt I'll be using doubles anytime soon but am interested in trying sidemount so potential conversion options would be great.

Based on the research and reading through all the relevant threads I've shortlisted 2 set-ups: DSS and Halcyon Infinity. Below are the pros and cons as I see them but am as I can't try neither of them here am looking for your helps to decide on the best fit.
DSS:
Pros: pure DIR rig, I like the idea of a lightweight Kydex plate. Tobin got hell of a reputation on the forum and I like it =) I've seen the sidemount extension for the plate as well so I assume transformation to sidemount rig would be reasonably easy.
Cons: currently I have to pull weight around the tank for proper trim - so lack of STA concerns me. Servicing might be an issue as shipping costs to US would be a nightmare =) Given most of the time I dive without a suit a BP without padding might not be really comfortable neither.
H Infinity:
Pros: the STA with weight and pockets on harness (I hate the belt but would want to have ditchable weights); BP padding sounds like a great idea; Hopefully local service centers would be able to service it. The clitch system seems attractive
Cons: Is it really a DIR rig given the paddings etc? =) Not sure about the flexibility to convert to sidemount...

I know it might look stupid but not having any experience with BP/W this is how I see it. Any recommendations? may be there is anything else I've missed. The initial investment (price) is not of a big concern but I don't want to realise I need to buy something totally different soon =)

Thanks a lot!

Roman

 

[Oldbear]

Roman,

Congratulations on going with a BP/W configuration.

I own both DSS and Halcyon gear. Also Dive Rite and OMS. If you want to go with a Hogarthian (DIR) configured rig what you need is a web harness, backplate and adequate sized wing. The fancy padding and elaborate harness are just fluff to market to first time buyers...IMHO.

I have been away from Dubai for five years now but Divers Down use to sell Dive Rite. But DR uses a lot of "deluxe harnesses". They do have your weight pockets though. Back plates are not that much different. You attach a wing to them and a harness.

Wings are your biggest investments and a quality wing is worth the money. They are not all the same. Pay for your quality and you will be satisfied the first time.

I prefer Halcyons, I own two of them. They are made rugged and are very will designed. I would not hesitate to buy another.

When I was ready to move on to a DIR BP/W I too called Tobin at DSS and he set me up with a nice starter rig. Since then my customer service with DSS has been disappointing. I really don't dive much with either of my DSS wings any longer. But I still use the BP and harness.

I am expecting delivery do a newly designed OMS wing next month. Similar to the DSS single wing it does not require a STA. When I dived with the DSS wing I did not notice any disadvantages not having a STA. The wing's modifications were adequate. I am sure the OMS will be to. STA can be nice for stabilization but on these wings designed to hold a tank the STA is just extra weight.

Regardless of brand get an oval one elliptical wing. They allow air/gas to move a little more freely within the wing while diving. Horseshoe wings are fine but take a little more effort.

If you are in Dubai look for Searcaigh on ScubaBoard. He is local and might be a valuable source of localized information.

 

[Roman K]

Roman,

Congratulations on going with a BP/W configuration.

Thanks a lot for such a detailed reply. As far as I understand taking out the padding is not a big deal (once I fully adopt DIR - and this might take a while) and it's still a single piece webbing...
The question remains with the conversion? Is there an extension for H BP to use for sidemount? Would the standard (say Eclipse) wing still work?

 

[tbone1004]

so couple general comments. Neither rig can be converted to sidemount. The DSS sidemount tail plate is for slinging bottles in sidemount for deco, stage, rebreather bailout etc etc. The hard backplates and the standard wings are not compatible with sidemount, so you are committing to a single tank rig.

The Infinity is very very expensive for what it is, and really just isn't necessary, though for your type of diving, I would question whether the lightweight plates are worth it. You are only saving ~3-4lbs of weight for travel and since you can put them in your carryon, I would personally go steel, and I would go with a rig from Tobin based on cost/quality/performance. In the US, the DSS rig is just under $500, but the Infinity is $850, and it just doesn't have anything to make it worth that much. If you're concerned about service cost, conveniently there should be no reason to send the wing back, especially if the wing you choose is the LCD series where they still have zippers. The only service you would ever have to sent it for, even on the Torus wings is operator error if you have a pinch flat. With the thickness of the bladders used by Tobin, that should be a nonissue, but the Halcyon will have the same problems since they're based in the US and I don't believe have a service center out there.

 

[rongoodman]

I'm partial to Halcyon but I wouldn't bother with the Infinity, just get an Eclipse and plate with the standard harness. Sidemount is something different, and you won't be using a BP/W if you go down that road.

 

[seeker242]

While it looks like it will take a while to get through Fundies (it's not that easy to get people for a class here), I'm keen to get a proper rig to get used to it before the class.

Unless you are going with a standard hogarthian harness, I would personally contact a GUE instructor and ask their opinion. You really don't want to show up to the class thinking that your rig is ok, only to be told that it's not. That would suck!

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

As long as the BP/W has a continuous one piece harness, D-rings placed in the correct locations, slip away crotch strap, basic plate, and an appropriately sized wing correctly matched to either singles or doubles (no doubles wings with singles for instance) you will be DIR compliant.
They don't care about brand as long as it's set up right.

There is a thread going on right now about finish details on plates you might want to check out. It's all about harnesses wearing out on sharp edged plates. Not all plates are created equal when it comes to sharp edges. DSS has some of the smoothest plates out there with attention given to rounding over rough edges. Other brands not so much. Generally, the cheaper the plate will mean lesser finish quality on the edges around the perimiter plus the slots. Details take time which = $$

 

[cool_hardware52]

When I was ready to move on to a DIR BP/W I too called Tobin at DSS and he set me up with a nice starter rig. Since then my customer service with DSS has been disappointing. I really don't dive much with either of my DSS wings any longer.

It has always been my policy to decline sales of gear I think inappropriate or potentially unsafe. Our bolt on weights are *not* appropriate for tropical diving. Any potential purchaser of DSS gear should be aware that I will indeed make a judgement concerning their intended use, and I will refuse to sell goods I consider to be potentially dangerous for a given application.

Regardless of brand get an oval one elliptical wing. They allow air/gas to move a little more freely within the wing while diving. Horseshoe wings are fine but take a little more effort.

Please explain specifically how this works. The lower arc of a Donut wing is after all under the lower end of the cylinder to a diver in trim. How exactly does gas move "more freely" when it has to pass through the absolutely lowest portion of the wing? Under exactly what circumstances does this occur, and how does that benefit the diver?

Tobin

 

[docmartin]

I own/have owned Halcyon, DSS and Dive Rite. Given the choice between H and DSS I would go with DSS. Halcyon is nice but more expensive without additional benefit in performance, durability etc. furthermore, for your kind of diving - 3mm max exposure protection - you don't need the lift of the H wing. You can get a smaller wing from DSS with the inherent advantages.
Backplates/harness are a commodity item in my view. I own two DSS ones, a Halcyon and a couple of generic ones. My conclusion is that you can save money by shopping around for a BP and harness without sacrificing any performance.
Personally, I would recommend you also take a look at the Dive Rite XT travel wing. It fits any BP imaginable, is well made and small and with the "super fabric" basically indestructible. Customer service is great and it comes with a life time warranty.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Hi All,

I've been reading the forums for about a year now and wanted to say a great thank you to all members - not having a big diving community around this is my key source of information and inspiration!

I currently dive with a back-inflate jacket (Axiom) BCD and am more and more interested in switching to DIR. While it looks like it will take a while to get through Fundies (it's not that easy to get people for a class here), I'm keen to get a proper rig to get used to it before the class.

I dive only in warm salty waters here in the GCC with temps varying from 22 to 32. So the exposure suits vary from a rash-guard/t-shirt to 3mm at the coldest times. I do mostly wrecks with some occasional penetrations. I do travel a bit around the region and am planning to dive in Asia so weight might be a concern.
I doubt I'll be using doubles anytime soon but am interested in trying sidemount so potential conversion options would be great.

Based on the research and reading through all the relevant threads I've shortlisted 2 set-ups: DSS and Halcyon Infinity. Below are the pros and cons as I see them but am as I can't try neither of them here am looking for your helps to decide on the best fit.
DSS:
Pros: pure DIR rig, I like the idea of a lightweight Kydex plate. Tobin got hell of a reputation on the forum and I like it =) I've seen the sidemount extension for the plate as well so I assume transformation to sidemount rig would be reasonably easy.
Cons: currently I have to pull weight around the tank for proper trim - so lack of STA concerns me. Servicing might be an issue as shipping costs to US would be a nightmare =) Given most of the time I dive without a suit a BP without padding might not be really comfortable neither.
H Infinity:
Pros: the STA with weight and pockets on harness (I hate the belt but would want to have ditchable weights); BP padding sounds like a great idea; Hopefully local service centers would be able to service it. The clitch system seems attractive
Cons: Is it really a DIR rig given the paddings etc? =) Not sure about the flexibility to convert to sidemount...

I know it might look stupid but not having any experience with BP/W this is how I see it. Any recommendations? may be there is anything else I've missed. The initial investment (price) is not of a big concern but I don't want to realise I need to buy something totally different soon =)

Thanks a lot!

Roman

Roman,

I'm probably repeating points others have made, but I want to respond to each of your concerns.

Plate material. For those applications that require a bit of ballast, for example 3mm wetsuit + buoyant tanks like an al 80, a Stainless plate is an advantage. It puts your ballast where you need it, up over your buoyant lungs and along side the buoyant cylinder, however with no exposure suit, or 3mm suits with most steel tanks a Stainless plate will very likely result in you being overweighted. A lightweight plate, i.e. Kydex or aluminum is the correct choice if the SS plate will over weight you, but be aware that when you add the 3mm suit and a weight belt trim may be harder to achieve. Two strategies are to either use at least a 3mm suit and go with a SS plate, or zip tie ankle weights to the edge of the Kydex plate when you add the 3mm suit.

We have many customers that are diving in warm water in 3mm suits and al 80's that use nothing but their Stainless Plate, harness and reg for ballast. That solves your weight belt issues, but it does leave you overweighted when you dive with no exposure protection.

You should never be very negative regardless of how you configure your Plate and wing, but when considering the need for and the benefit of ditchable ballast you should first look at the "problem" you might be trying to solve.

In a 3mm suit + al 80 you will need to start the dive about 5-6-7 lbs negative. With a Kydex plate you would probably need 2-3 lbs one a belt. Dropping 2-3 lbs won't make you positive, and it won't really have much impact on being able to "swim up" in the unlikely event of wing failure. Same thing at the surface, if you are faced with a long wait for the boat and a wing failure you are going to have to ditch the rig. Moving to stainless plate and no belt doesn't really change much.

As others have noted the DSS "sidemount tail plate" will not convert a BP&W to a sidemount rig. (I should probably change the name of that part ) The tail plate grew out of request from RB divers that wanted to "sidemount" vs "sling" their bailout bottles.

Comfort with just a Teeshirt is typically not a problem. Back plates look uncomfortable, but they only contact the diver at a few points, and the Kydex plates flex a little to. My standard advice for those worried about comfort is to source a juvenile wetsuit (these are often available for $10-15 as kids grow quickly) and cut it up to make pads. The arms become harness pads and a section can be cut to fit the plate. Then after you cut all these pads off after a couple dives you are only out $15.

STA's. With a DSS plate you don't need a STA for tank stability, and when diving with no exposure suit the ballast a sta provides increases the chances you will be over weighted. STA's have a few other disadvantages, but at the top of the list is the ballast issue.

If you have no plans for more than a 3mm wetsuit you need very little wing capacity. Even with a SS plate and al 80 your rig will be about -10 lbs with a full tank, and your 3mm suit is 3-5 lbs positive. Thin suits and al 80's is why we offer 17 lbs lift wings.

Tobin