How do you feel about PADI bashing on this thread??

[HowardE]

Smart folks these agencies are. I think you are correct, standards are lowered to increase profit. I think it is great that someone is encouraging blind folks to dive, but to tell people who have the swimming skill of a kid in red cross level 2 swimming to dive is absurd.

What does that have to do with basic open water?

 

[ehuber]

Classes, instructors, books, and assessment were originally devised as a means to provide a student with the tools to learn a subject for themselves to a much higher degree. Now, everything is geared toward the tests, so the students are spoon-fed memory tasks and forget the vast majority of information in a matter of days and weeks.

This may be PADIs main difficulty. They're creating divers who aren't interested in learning for themselves and rely on instructors, forums, and buddies to provide all their information for them in a way that robs them of the necessity of learning. Now these learning opportunities are becoming certification acquisition opportunities.

With the advent of the computer, it is likely that we will see more divers with less skill, knowledge, and motivation to learn...

 

[boulderjohn]

No, but have you got any evidence that a blind man driving a car will get in an accident? It is intuitive.

No need to use intuition. DAN's web site will describe every diver death. You can go there and count the number of deaths that can be attributed to this standard.

By the way, your trust in your intuition might take a hit when you do this.

 

[fisherdvm]

Got any evidence to support the your position that scuba divers who complete a 300 yd snorkel during training instead of a 200 yd swim are more likely to die while scuba diving?


Jackie

It took me less than 5 minute in the 2006 DAN report. Of course, DAN is not complete. Only a fraction of rec divers are registered.

I think it was case 4-22 from 2006 DAN report. Obese middle aged man. Had problem putting his fin on before entry. Struggled to swim to site, and was seen breathing hard.

Question: heart attack or out of shape... No body knows, except God. We'll never find out if he passed his 200 yard swim.

 

[fisherdvm]

No need to use intuition. DAN's web site will describe every diver death. You can go there and count the number of deaths that can be attributed to this standard.

By the way, your trust in your intuition might take a hit when you do this.

I certainly can not, nor DAN can not, attribute diver's death due to substituting swimming standard for "snorkeling".

But in 2005, of the 67 reported cases of death, about 40 were of drowning. Five of the cases occurred even before the descend. And about 1/3 occurred after ascend.

Intuition would say, better swimmer, better physical shape, less problem at the surface. You figure it out.

 

[HowardE]

I certainly can not, nor DAN can not, attribute diver's death due to substituting swimming standard for "snorkeling".

But in 2005, of the 67 reported cases of death, about 40 were of drowning. Five of the cases occurred even before the descend. And about 1/3 occurred after ascend.

Intuition would say, better swimmer, better physical shape, less problem at the surface. You figure it out.

OR - intuition would say that 40 cases were reported as drowning because the definition of drowning is:

"To die by suffocating in water or another liquid. "

a vast majority of diver deaths are ruled drowning by authorities because it is difficult to prove much else, after the victim fills their lungs with sea water.

So - you can assert your assumption about swimming all you want, but it's only that. an assumption.

 

[H2Andy]

ya.... howarde is right on

your average medical examiner or coroner will see signs of drowning and call it a drowning, and not worry about figuring out what led up to the drowning

but i'd also would like to be better fit anway ... always easier to handle problems

 

[fisherdvm]

OR - intuition would say that 40 cases were reported as drowning because the definition of drowning is:

"To die by suffocating in water or another liquid. "

a vast majority of diver deaths are ruled drowning by authorities because it is difficult to prove much else, after the victim fills their lungs with sea water.

So - you can assert your assumption about swimming all you want, but it's only that. an assumption.

I kinda wonder what happened to the 5 that drowned before their descent? Only an assumption.

 

[HowardE]

I kinda wonder what happened to the 5 that drowned before their descent? Only an assumption.

Exactly - By definition. Unless you have some inside knowledge that nobody else does... you can wonder (assume) all day long

 

[Walter]

No one will ever know all the factors that contribute to a particular death. Panic is often a factor. Panic comes from fear. Fear comes from lack of self confidence in a particular situation. Sometimes, poor swimming ability can contribute to a lack of self confidence.

I do not believe we should be using death rates as an indication of quality of training. Death is merely one possibility, and not a very likely one, that can come about when someone is inadequately trained. There are lots of poorly trained divers who are still alive and some very well trained divers who've died while diving. More likely outcomes of poor training are: a lack of confidence and dropping out of diving, needing a DM to hold their hands on dives, needing to be rescued, poor buoyancy control, poor trim, poor kicking technique, panic, etc.